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- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/18/2008
Nov 17:Trader shoots himself at Brazil financial exchange
I'd rather think and hope positively. We get what we are thinking, no matter they are what we like or not. It is the law of attraction.
- posted on 11/18/2008
we can keep our fingers crossed for the positive trend, but the reality seems to be really alarming.
¨C The U.S. Treasury Secretary and members of Congress locked horns on Tuesday over a $700 billion financial bailout fund, with lawmakers demanding money to stem foreclosures and Henry Paulson arguing it was meant for investing in financial companies.
At the beginning of a House of Representatives Financial Services Committee hearing where he faced a grilling over his handling of the program, Paulson insisted that injecting capital into banks was the most effective way to restore confidence and stabilize the financial system.
Federal Deposit Insurance Corp Chairman Sheila Bair, however, told lawmakers it was "essential" Treasury offer loan guarantees and credit help to slow home foreclosures under the bailout approved by Congress last month.
The $700-billion program, the government's central effort to ease a credit crisis that has put the U.S. and world economies at risk, was originally intended to buy bad loans from banks. The Treasury has scrapped that plan and has focused on using it to buy equity in financial institutions.
Some $290 billion of the first $350 billion authorized under the program already has been used or committed for use, and Paulson said he wanted to reserve the balance of it for the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama, who takes office on January 20.
"This financial crisis is unpredictable and difficult to counteract," Paulson said. "So early last week, we concluded it was only prudent to reserve our ... capacity, maintaining not only our flexibility, but that of the next administration."
POLICY DISAPPOINTS
Committee Chairman Barney Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat, sharply differed with Paulson, who said he had "reservations" about using bailout funds to ward off foreclosures.
"The fundamental policy issue is our disappointment that funds are not being used out of the $700 billion to supplement mortgage foreclosure reduction," Frank said. "There, I believe, is an overwhelmingly and powerful set of reasons why some of the ... money must be used for mortgage foreclosure (mitigation)."
While he said he had reservations about proposals that had been offered, Paulson told lawmakers he had not flatly ruled out using bailout funds to stem the rising tide of foreclosures.
Rising U.S. mortgage defaults has touched off a global credit crisis that economists say threatens to push the U.S. economy into a long and severe recession.
- posted on 11/18/2008
The Republicans on the hill are opposed to the bailout spreading to other industries and I don't know if Bush is willing to go along even if congress approves the handout to the Big Three. The tragedy of millions of people losing their jobs and sending this recession into a tailspin notwithstanding, it is hard to imagine where do you draw the line in terms of government bailout if the auto industry slices a piece of this $700 billion pie. Given the fact that they themselves dug the big hole by producing the big gas guzzlers that nobody wants to buy anymore, and their steadyfast opposition to raising the gas mileage incrementally over the last 40 years or so, give them a freebie at this point is hard to stomach for a lot of people. Even after Obama takes over, if they can survive that long, a comprehensive deal with them has to include a clear strategy to go green, and that's very hard to achieve because the unions are opposed to that too. Obama may not be beholden to them, but the unions are his base of support.
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- posted on 11/18/2008
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i think doing nothing is the best thing to do now.
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http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/11/18/foo.elderly.foreclosure.kusi (Foreclosure on 83-year-old) - posted on 11/18/2008
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I agree with some of your points, big three do need reform,however, they have to survive to carry out the reform. If they all fail, which is very likely if government choses not to do anything before the end of the year, then the result will be devastating for the whole economy.
And I do think they don't have to slice from the 700 Billion pie, as one Maryland law maker suggested, consumers can get tax credits for buying cars from those big three, the total cost will end up only 8 Billion instead of 25 billion proposed by some.
I think behind the current policy of this admistration is the thinking of trickle down economy of Regan era, keep the rich people rich so the whole society will benefit from it, which has been proven to be fruitless in the past. As JFK puts, if you don't help the poor, you can't save the rich. The New Deal worked in the 30s and 40s just because FDR helped people from the very grass root level.
tar wrote:
The Republicans on the hill are opposed to the bailout spreading to other industries and I don't know if Bush is willing to go along even if congress approves the handout to the Big Three. The tragedy of millions of people losing their jobs and sending this recession into a tailspin notwithstanding, it is hard to imagine where do you draw the line in terms of government bailout if the auto industry slices a piece of this $700 billion pie. Given the fact that they themselves dug the big hole by producing the big gas guzzlers that nobody wants to buy anymore, and their steadyfast opposition to raising the gas mileage incrementally over the last 40 years or so, give them a freebie at this point is hard to stomach for a lot of people. Even after Obama takes over, if they can survive that long, a comprehensive deal with them has to include a clear strategy to go green, and that's very hard to achieve because the unions are opposed to that too. Obama may not be beholden to them, but the unions are his base of support.
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- posted on 11/18/2008
I am very conflicted about this. On one hand everybody is in trouble, you need to put your foot down somewhere. On the other hand, if you let them fail, then millions of people will lose their jobs, and the economy will go into a depression. And it is not only limited to Detroit, as we have massive layoffs in Silicon Valley already.
There is not much hope for this administration to do anything constructive. And I really don't know if they can whip up something in time to save the auto industry. But after Obama takes over, a massive economic stimulus package aiming at public spending on infrastructure will be offered. And if the Big Three can survive by then, they can become part of the comprehensive rescue plan at the promise of green reform.
Re Reagan's Trickle Down "voodoo" economy, it is at the center of the Republican ideology for the last 30 years. This total faith in "market can always correct itself" is now painfully rebuked and the Republicans are now deprived of any coherent intellectual base to stand on. Pretty pathetic to watch. ;-)
feiming wrote:
I agree with some of your points, big three do need reform,however, they have to survive to carry out the reform. If they all fail, which is very likely if government choses not to do anything before the end of the year, then the result will be devastating for the whole economy.
And I do think they don't have to slice from the 700 Billion pie, as one Maryland law maker suggested, consumers can get tax credits for buying cars from those big three, the total cost will end up only 8 Billion.
I think behind the current policy of this admistration is the thinking of trickle down economy of Regan era, keep the rich people rich so the whole society will benefit from it, which has been proven to be fruitless in the past. As Kennedy said, if you don't help the poor, you can't save the rich. The New Deal worked in the 30 just because FDR helped people from the very grass root level.
tar wrote:
The Republicans on the hill are opposed to the bailout spreading to other industries and I don't know if Bush is willing to go along even if congress approves the handout to the Big Three. The tragedy of millions of people losing their jobs and sending this recession into a tailspin notwithstanding, it is hard to imagine where do you draw the line in terms of government bailout if the auto industry slices a piece of this $700 billion pie. Given the fact that they themselves dug the big hole by producing the big gas guzzlers that nobody wants to buy anymore, and their steadyfast opposition to raising the gas mileage incrementally over the last 40 years or so, give them a freebie at this point is hard to stomach for a lot of people. Even after Obama takes over, if they can survive that long, a comprehensive deal with them has to include a clear strategy to go green, and that's very hard to achieve because the unions are opposed to that too. Obama may not be beholden to them, but the unions are his base of support.
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- posted on 11/18/2008
feiming wrote:
I agree with some of your points, big three do need reform,however, they have to survive to carry out the reform. If they all fail, which is very likely if government choses not to do anything before the end of the year, then the result will be devastating for the whole economy.
And I do think they don't have to slice from the 700 Billion pie, as one Maryland law maker suggested, consumers can get tax credits for buying cars from those big three, the total cost will end up only 8 Billion instead of 25 billion proposed by some.
I think behind the current policy of this admistration is the thinking of trickle down economy of Regan era, keep the rich people rich so the whole society will benefit from it, which has been proven to be fruitless in the past. As JFK puts, if you don't help the poor, you can't save the rich. The New Deal worked in the 30s and 40s just because FDR helped people from the very grass root level.
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- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/18/2008
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i think doing nothing is the best thing to do now.
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The Financial Empire At Sunset
(photographed November 18, 2008) - posted on 11/18/2008
A Bridge for the Carmakers
The Future Is in Sight. They Just Need Help Getting There.
By Jeffrey D. Sachs
Monday, November 17, 2008; A19
A government-supported restructuring of the auto industry is urgently needed for our economic and energy security. If the Bush administration allows the auto industry to collapse, it will compound the panic that started with the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers. Washington should seize the opportunity to begin a new era of U.S. technological leadership in the global auto industry, starting with an immediate loan.
First, this is an opportunity to embark on a major industry restructuring to position the United States to lead the world in producing cars that get 100 miles or more per gallon. This achievement is closer than many suppose, with the pathbreaking plug-in hybrid Chevy Volt set to arrive in 2010 and several new hybrid models on the way. American-made fuel-cell cars may be a large-scale reality within a decade. Success would dramatically improve energy and national security, climate security, and U.S. global competitiveness, and a public-private partnership is needed to bring about this transformation.
Second, the sudden closure of an automaker would be catastrophic, possibly pushing our economy from recession to depression. Because of the impact on parts suppliers, the shutdown of one company would imperil domestic production across the board, and the jobs at risk include not only the 1 million in vehicle assembly and parts but millions more that would be caught in the resulting cascade of failures. The industrial Midwest -- especially Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Tennessee -- would be devastated, and the shock waves would reverberate across the world.
Third, any restructuring under Chapter 11 bankruptcy rules would be a death knell. Yes, in some industries, Chapter 11 can provide breathing space. For the automakers, however, it would accelerate the collapse of consumer demand and the mass bankruptcy of parts manufacturers. Consumers choose vehicles in part on their expectation of the long-term health of the companies that make them, which they rely on for parts, service and resale values.
The industry does not need a shakeout but a change of technology for long-term energy and climate security. The recent collapse of annual sales, from 17 million vehicles to 11 million, is not permanent but cyclical. Over time, sales will increase, especially as people in China, India and other emerging markets become buyers. A forecast of U.S. sales of 15 million to 20 million units a year is justified by normal replacements among the 240 million passenger vehicles Americans now own, and the U.S. market will also grow along with population and income.
Yet the automakers cannot turn to ordinary borrowing to tide them over until that happens because of the ravaged capital markets. The risk spreads of corporate bonds over U.S. Treasuries are the highest ever, and many borrowers can't get credit at any price. That's why the government has embarked on nearly $1 trillion in direct interventions. A small part of that should be used for the auto industry.
In this environment, the normal market test of consumer demand can't be used to judge which industries should survive. We are experiencing the steepest temporary decline in consumer spending since the Depression. Consumer financing for autos has collapsed. Households are retrenching after the greatest wealth loss in equities and housing in history.
And a transformation of the type that's required for long-term sustainability of the automakers will require both the market and government. Public policies and funding are needed to support the research and development of high-performance batteries and fuel cells and, especially, to modernize the national power grid and other infrastructure. These are steps that individual auto companies (and even the industry as a whole) could not accomplish on their own.
Some want to see the industry punished for its neglect of energy and environmental realities, but we should acknowledge that the SUV era reflected poor judgment across society. Yes, the industry ignored warnings about energy insecurity and climate, but so did the public and politicians. Rather than kill the auto industry, and destroy the U.S. economy in the process, we should fix the industry with a sense of national responsibility and purpose. (We should also fix our ramshackle health-care system, which has burdened the industry and the economy with punitively high costs.)
There are many crucial issues for the design of a long-term restructuring. The government needs the authority to steer a public-private consortium to create a high-mileage-vehicle economy in the coming decade. Public and private funding will be needed for research, development and demonstration of breakthrough technologies. During the restructuring, taxpayers will need protections, including warrants or equity shares, limits on industry compensation, and an equitable restructuring of worker benefits, a process that has already begun because of market hardships.
We face an unprecedented financial calamity, energy crisis and environmental threat. A vibrant, growing U.S. automobile industry should play an essential role in solving all three. The technologies that will win the day are in sight; industry has already made important advances. A partnership with government is vital and should begin this week.
Jeffrey D. Sachs is director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University and the author of "Common Wealth: Economics for a Crowded Planet."
- posted on 11/18/2008
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- posted on 11/18/2008
I don't know who ZT this, but I want to say this is an insightful one,--not because my opinion is similar to his, but because of his objectivity and ability to reflect!
A Bridge for the Carmakers
The Future Is in Sight. They Just Need Help Getting There.
By Jeffrey D. Sachs
Monday, November 17, 2008; A19
we should acknowledge that the SUV era reflected poor judgment across society. - posted on 11/18/2008
Paulson is gonna horde the $700 billion loot to himself and just went to the hill and told lawmakers to f*** themselves.
This is a good article. And it's probably a concensus among Obama's brain trust that a comprehensive transformation towards green economy is the starting point to fix this malaise. The silver lining is, without this crisis, there would have no political will for embarking such an ambitious makeover. The question is, can the auto industry survive the next 2 months if the Bushies aren't going to do anything?
feiming wrote:
I don't know who ZT this, but I want to say this is an insightful one,--not because my opinion is similar to his, but because of his objectivity and ability to reflect!
A Bridge for the Carmakers
The Future Is in Sight. They Just Need Help Getting There.
By Jeffrey D. Sachs
Monday, November 17, 2008; A19
we should acknowledge that the SUV era reflected poor judgment across society. - posted on 11/18/2008
::) we have plenty of serious discussion, now we have to wait and see--to be or not to be,all in Bush's hands::)
"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns ?
tar wrote:
Paulson is gonna horde the $700 billion loot to himself and just went to the hill and told lawmakers to f*** themselves.
This is a good article. And it's probably a concensus among Obama's brain trust that a comprehensive transformation towards green economy is the starting point to fix this malaise. The silver lining is, without this crisis, there would have no political will for embarking such an ambitious makeover. The question is, can the auto industry survive the next 2 months if the Bushies aren't going to do anything?
feiming wrote:
I don't know who ZT this, but I want to say this is an insightful one,--not because my opinion is similar to his, but because of his objectivity and ability to reflect!
A Bridge for the Carmakers
The Future Is in Sight. They Just Need Help Getting There.
By Jeffrey D. Sachs
Monday, November 17, 2008; A19
we should acknowledge that the SUV era reflected poor judgment across society. - Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2008
·ÏÃû wrote:
×î½ü¼¸Æð½ðÈڷ籩Ôì³ÉµÄ±©Á¦±¯¾ç¶¼·¢ÉúÔÚ¼ÓÖݵȵأ¬µ«·ç±©µÄʼ×÷Ù¸Õß»ª¶û½Ö´óºàÃÇÈ´°²È»ÎÞí¦£¬³ýÁËÀ×ÂüÐֵܵÄÀϰ帻µÃ°¤Á˶ٴòÖ®Í⣬ÆäËûÈË
the root cause of the financial crisis happened, at least partially, on the main street
-- the housing bubble
---borrowers defaulted on their obligations
I cannot even agree with your first statement, sorry - posted on 11/19/2008
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abc wrote:
µ«´ÓÀûÒæµÄ½Ç¶È£¬»ª¶û½Ö¸Ã¾ÈÖ÷½Ö²»¸Ã¾È£¬ÒòΪ»ª¶û½Ö¾ÈµÃºÃÖ÷½Ö¾È²»ºÃ¡£
Completely agree.
- posted on 11/19/2008
Again,I am not an expert in this field, you are more than welcome to debate to critique my points.
I didn't try to attribute all the causes to Wall Street, what I was saying here is that some tragic incidents triggered by the fiancial crisis happened in places other than New York city where the Wall Street located.
I think if you try to seriously trace the cause-effect of this crisis, it should be
a mutually related one »¥ÎªÒò¹û( or chicken and eggs)--a cycle in which it is hard to determine what causes what.
Without the degrulation and the encouragment of the banks, it is hard or possible at all for the unqualified borrowers to get loan from the banks and subsequently helped to create the housing bubble; Without the agressive fiancial products such as 5 year ARM and Pay- Interest Only schemes, those naive or irresponsible borrowers won't be hooked up by them and defaulted later--some of them really didn't realize they could't afford their house untile now. And some foreclosures are rational choices of homeowners, becuase they didn't expect the housing price go all the way down hill like this, and they couldn't sell it, the houses worth less than they paid for, taken by banks could reduce some losses.
I think the relationship between Main Street and Wall Street is not that simple,
it may need more complicated methods such as Regression or factors analysis to gather real empirical evidence-- which I am unable to do:)
pepper wrote:
·ÏÃû wrote:the root cause of the financial crisis happened, at least partially, on the main street
×î½ü¼¸Æð½ðÈڷ籩Ôì³ÉµÄ±©Á¦±¯¾ç¶¼·¢ÉúÔÚ¼ÓÖݵȵأ¬µ«·ç±©µÄʼ×÷Ù¸Õß»ª¶û½Ö´óºàÃÇÈ´°²È»ÎÞí¦£¬³ýÁËÀ×ÂüÐֵܵÄÀϰ帻µÃ°¤Á˶ٴòÖ®Í⣬ÆäËûÈË
-- the housing bubble
---borrowers defaulted on their obligations
I cannot even agree with your first statement, sorry - posted on 11/19/2008
I am a staunch (perhaps stenchy to some :-) Darwinist. I believe certain companies or industries should be allowed to die, "passing through nature to eternity".
The engine and backbone of the U.S. economy lies largely in scientific invention and technological innovation. Companies that rely on politics or stocks, rather than science and technology, for survival, should be left alone to face the predictable consequences of their deliberate decision not to compete effectively in the global economy. This is particularly true of the American auto industry. For decades U.S. automakers have trailed behind their foreign competitors. The Big Three have had ample time, opportunities and resources (including talented scientists and engineers from around the world at their disposal) to bail themselves out. But they chose not to. It's time for such companies to phase out.
As to over one million people whose jobs are tied to the auto-industry, their quality of life may suffer temporarily but will still be far better than many first-generation immigrants who are willing to work hard for less. The dysfunctional but still functioning U.S. welfare system will take care of those adversely affected by the demise of the auto industry. In addition, they can always work for increased Japanese companies or other incoming foreign companies that value sound work ethics, science and technology. In the end, those will survive and thrive who are quick to adapt the notion that a job has to be earned by oneself rather than handed down by the government, and who are quick to abandon the sense of entitlement to a job and security in life, and most importantly, who are willing to learn, unlearn and relearn.
Certain companies should be allowed to die, whether they exist in Main Street or Wall Street.
- posted on 11/19/2008
abc, ÄãµÄÅжÏÐèҪЩ֤¾Ý£¬ÖÁÉÙÏÖÔÚÖ¤¾Ý»¹Ã»³öÀ´£º£©
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- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2008
feiming wrote:
Ö÷½Ö»¹Ã»Óоȣ¬ÈçºÎÖªµÀ¾È²»ºÃ£¿ ÀúÊ·ÉÏ´óÏôÌõʱÂÞ˹¸£¾ÈÖ÷½Ö¶øÇҾȺÃÁË¡£
¿´µ½ÓаÑÏÖÔÚ±È×ö´óÏôÌõʱ´úÐèÒªÐÂÕþ£¬ÎÒ²»ÊÇÌ«¶®£¬ËÄܸø·ÖÎö·ÖÎö£¬ÐÂÕþºÍ¶þÕ½Äĸö¹¦À͸ü´ó£¿ - posted on 11/19/2008
¸¡Éú wrote:
feiming wrote:¿´µ½ÓаÑÏÖÔÚ±È×ö´óÏôÌõʱ´úÐèÒªÐÂÕþ£¬ÎÒ²»ÊÇÌ«¶®£¬ËÄܸø·ÖÎö·ÖÎö£¬ÐÂÕþºÍ¶þÕ½Äĸö¹¦À͸ü´ó£¿
Ö÷½Ö»¹Ã»Óоȣ¬ÈçºÎÖªµÀ¾È²»ºÃ£¿ ÀúÊ·ÉÏ´óÏôÌõʱÂÞ˹¸£¾ÈÖ÷½Ö¶øÇҾȺÃÁË¡£
It's beyond my knowledge. But as far as I know, many people believe things could be better without the New Deal. For example, this book: http://www.amazon.com/FDRs-Folly-Roosevelt-Prolonged-Depression/dp/140005477X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227063011&sr=8-1 - posted on 11/19/2008
Nonsense. Without the New Deal, there would have been revolution already.
Rover wrote:
It's beyond my knowledge. But as far as I know, many people believe things could be better without the New Deal. For example, this book: http://www.amazon.com/FDRs-Folly-Roosevelt-Prolonged-Depression/dp/140005477X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227063011&sr=8-1 - posted on 11/19/2008
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feiming wrote:
abc, ÄãµÄÅжÏÐèҪЩ֤¾Ý£¬ÖÁÉÙÏÖÔÚÖ¤¾Ý»¹Ã»³öÀ´£º£©
Ö÷½Ö»¹Ã»Óоȣ¬ÈçºÎÖªµÀ¾È²»ºÃ£¿ ÀúÊ·ÉÏ´óÏôÌõʱÂÞ˹¸£¾ÈÖ÷½Ö¶øÇҾȺÃÁË¡£
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2008
You didn't pay for the $700,000,000,000, did you?
pepper wrote:
abc wrote:Completely agree.
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- posted on 11/19/2008
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- posted on 11/19/2008
feiming wrote:
Again,I am not an expert in this field, you are more than welcome to debate to critique my points.
I didn't try to attribute all the causes to Wall Street, what I was saying here is that some tragic incidents triggered by the fiancial crisis happened in places other than New York city where the Wall Street located.
You probably are not aware the recent political environment of banking. It has become impossible not to lend to the low income people, blacks and Hispanics. There are tens of non-profit organizations who try to show the banks are biased against these people, and there are dozens of laws that require banks lend to these poor people.
Some banks are very greedy, that is for sure. But so is the main street.
- posted on 11/19/2008
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Fengzi wrote:
I am a staunch (perhaps stenchy to some :-) Darwinist. I believe certain companies or industries should be allowed to die, "passing through nature to eternity".
The engine and backbone of the U.S. economy lies largely in scientific invention and technological innovation. Companies that rely on politics or stocks, rather than science and technology, for survival, should be left alone to face the predictable consequences of their deliberate decision not to compete effectively in the global economy. This is particularly true of the American auto industry. For decades U.S. automakers have trailed behind their foreign competitors. The Big Three have had ample time, opportunities and resources (including talented scientists and engineers from around the world at their disposal) to bail themselves out. But they chose not to. It's time for such companies to phase out.
As to over one million people whose jobs are tied to the auto-industry, their quality of life may suffer temporarily but will still be far better than many first-generation immigrants who are willing to work hard for less. The dysfunctional but still functioning U.S. welfare system will take care of those adversely affected by the demise of the auto industry. In addition, they can always work for increased Japanese companies or other incoming foreign companies that value sound work ethics, science and technology. In the end, those will survive and thrive who are quick to adapt the notion that a job has to be earned by oneself rather than handed down by the government, and who are quick to abandon the sense of entitlement to a job and security in life, and most importantly, who are willing to learn, unlearn and relearn.
Certain companies should be allowed to die, whether they exist in Main Street or Wall Street.
- posted on 11/19/2008
You probably are not aware the recent political environment of banking. It has become impossible not to lend to the low income people, blacks and Hispanics. There are tens of non-profit organizations who try to show the banks are biased against these people, and there are dozens of laws that require banks lend to these poor people.
Nonsense! Zxd just wrote in another thread, that according to his research, only 10% of all the high risk mortgages were loaned to the low income people.
This is typical right wing deregulation zealots' misinformation trying to deflect the wrath of American people away from the true culprits. The next talking points: it's the Fanny Mae and Freddi Mac's fault; it's too much regulations on FM/FM.
pepper wrote:
feiming wrote:You probably are not aware the recent political environment of banking. It has become impossible not to lend to the low income people, blacks and Hispanics. There are tens of non-profit organizations who try to show the banks are biased against these people, and there are dozens of laws that require banks lend to these poor people.
Again,I am not an expert in this field, you are more than welcome to debate to critique my points.
I didn't try to attribute all the causes to Wall Street, what I was saying here is that some tragic incidents triggered by the fiancial crisis happened in places other than New York city where the Wall Street located.
Some banks are very greedy, that is for sure. But so is the main street.
- posted on 11/19/2008
Since FDR started the New Deal policies in 1936, the unemployment actually went down in 1940. It's true that only well into the years after U.S entered the war did the country emerge from the depression, but according to Paul Krugman, it was his attempt at balancing the budget that killed the recovery prematurely.
Futhermore, WWII actually provided a platform for massive government spending in manufacturing weaponry (a New Deal of killing?), and it is no different than spending on infrastructure. If anything it underscores the importance of the fact that if we want government intervention facing the enormity of the problem, it has to be bold. Spending couple of hunfred billions here and there probably won't make much difference.
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just heard if no action will be taken, the number of foreclosures will reach five millions in two years. Some congress people are pressing Paulson to help with these home owners, as if they were some poor victims. But aren't they just victims of their own actions and stupidity, as they borrowed too much money they cannot afford to pay back? I have little sympathy toward them. Should I feel otherwise? - posted on 11/19/2008
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tar wrote:
Nonsense! Zxd just wrote in another thread, that according to his research, only 10% of all the high risk mortgages were loaned to the low income people.
Funny thing you think you became an expert after reading Zxd's "research".
A clarification of terminology will be helpful
"Subprime" means the borrowers have low credit score, which correlates highly with low-income
"Alter-A" means the borrowers have no proof to show their income, which tends to mean people inflating their income.
Sub-prime and Alter-A loans are the most risky loans.
- posted on 11/19/2008
Government is already spending 300 B to help these borrowers through the "Hope Now" program
Many of these borrowers did not pay a cent as down payment (100% loans), and have been living in these house for free without paying mortgages. The worst to happen to them is to move to an apartment. Should they be bailed out? You tell me.
gz wrote:
just heard if no action will be taken, the number of foreclosures will reach five millions in two years. Some congress people are pressing Paulson to help with these home owners, as if they were some poor victims. But aren't they just victims of their own actions and stupidity, as they borrowed too much money they cannot afford to pay back? I have little sympathy toward them. Should I feel otherwise? - posted on 11/19/2008
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ÐÂÕþΪÃÀ¹úÁôÏÂÖÁ½ñÈÔ´æÔÚµÄÖØÒªÒŲú£ºSocial Security and Pension, FDIC, Security and Exchange Commission, Èç½ñÊÇÉç»á±£ÕÏ°²È«ÍøºÍ¼à¹Ü±£»¤ÃÀ¹ú±ÜÃâ¾¼ÃÖص¸¸²ÕÞµÄÈý´óÖØÒª
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¹²ºÍµ³×ÜͳÄá¿ËËÉ1971Äê˵£º" ÎÒÃǶ¼ÊÇ¿¶÷˹Ö÷ÒåÕß¡°£¨¡°we are all Keynesians"£©
¡µ¡µ¡µ¸¡Éú£º¿´µ½ÓаÑÏÖÔÚ±È×ö´óÏôÌõʱ´úÐèÒªÐÂÕþ£¬ÎÒ²»ÊÇÌ«¶®£¬ËÄܸø·ÖÎö·ÖÎö£¬ÐÂÕþºÍ¶þÕ½Äĸö¹¦À͸ü´ó£¿ - posted on 11/19/2008
pepper wrote:
Government is already spending 300 B to help these borrowers through the "Hope Now" program
Many of these borrowers did not pay a cent as down payment (100% loans), and have been living in these hourse for free without paying mortgages. The worst to happen to them is to move to an apartment. Should they be bailed out? You tell me.
Actually they do pay some, otherwise they will be kicked out by the banks within the first year. What they pay is just the interests, no principle. The banks knew that the house price had been going up and up like crazy. So the banks expected that the home owners would keep refinancing and refinancing, that made the banks' accounting book look better and better ...... until the show is over.
There are 2 types of foreclosures: (1) The home owner really can not afford the house they bought no matter of what. Some of these people bought the houses for living, others bought the houses for investments. (2) The home owners who see their house market value keep going down and down - and they don't want to pay more than what it is worth. They can afford the payments but they choose not to.
In both cases, MANY of the home owners got their equity loan or refinanced loan and then spent the money for vacations, SUVs, kids college, etc. Almost no one had interest to payoff the house in any way - the banks did not expect that to happen anyway.
The issue is clear: should the tax payers bail out all of the foreclosures, or just the ones that worked hard to pay the house THEY LIVE (not for investment) but suddenly lost job? - Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2008
that might not be the worst, quite a few even camp outside in the cold winter now, and the number are growing bigger everyday.
I agree government can't afford to bail everyone and every industry out, but it can chose some who desperately need to be bailed out.
The worst to happen to them is to move to an apartment. Should they be bailed out? You tell me. - posted on 11/19/2008
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SevenStar wrote:
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- posted on 11/19/2008
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¹þ¹þһЦ wrote:
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SevenStar wrote:
¶Ô£¡Ö»Óл¨¶ù½ÖÄÇЩÄêнÉÏ°ÙÍòµÄ²ÅÖµµÃ¾È¡£
- posted on 11/19/2008
rzp wrote:
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Quality: Æû³µ¡¢µçÄÔÓ²¼þ¡¢¼ÒÓõçÆ÷Ó²¼þ¡¢ÎäÆ÷¡¢ÆäËû½»Í¨¹¤¾ß
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- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2008
Ó¦¸Ã˵ÊǶþÕ½¹¦À͸ü´ó¡£µ¥½²Ê§ÒµÂÊ£º
1929: 25%
1941: 19%
1945: 1%
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feiming wrote:¿´µ½ÓаÑÏÖÔÚ±È×ö´óÏôÌõʱ´úÐèÒªÐÂÕþ£¬ÎÒ²»ÊÇÌ«¶®£¬ËÄܸø·ÖÎö·ÖÎö£¬ÐÂÕþºÍ¶þÕ½Äĸö¹¦À͸ü´ó£¿
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1929: 25%
1941: 19%
1945: 1%
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feiming wrote:¿´µ½ÓаÑÏÖÔÚ±È×ö´óÏôÌõʱ´úÐèÒªÐÂÕþ£¬ÎÒ²»ÊÇÌ«¶®£¬ËÄܸø·ÖÎö·ÖÎö£¬ÐÂÕþºÍ¶þÕ½Äĸö¹¦À͸ü´ó£¿
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ÀÏÍß wrote:
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°Ëʮһ×Ó wrote:
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1929: 25%
1941: 19%
1945: 1%
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feiming wrote:¿´µ½ÓаÑÏÖÔÚ±È×ö´óÏôÌõʱ´úÐèÒªÐÂÕþ£¬ÎÒ²»ÊÇÌ«¶®£¬ËÄܸø·ÖÎö·ÖÎö£¬ÐÂÕþºÍ¶þÕ½Äĸö¹¦À͸ü´ó£¿
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ÀÏÍß wrote:
Perception: ¿ì²Í¡¢µçÓ°¡¢¿ìËÙÏû·ÑÆ·¡¢½ðÈÚ·þÎñ¡¢·¨ÂÉ·þÎñ¡¢Ò½ÁÆ·þÎñ¡¢ÌåÓý²úÒµ£¬½ÌÓý²úÒµ£¬Ò©Æ·Ê³Æ·
Quality: Æû³µ¡¢µçÄÔÓ²¼þ¡¢¼ÒÓõçÆ÷Ó²¼þ¡¢ÎäÆ÷¡¢ÆäËû½»Í¨¹¤¾ß
ÃÀ¹úÆû³µ and Apple computer belong to perception, - posted on 11/19/2008
°Ëʮһ×Ó wrote:
ÀÏÍß˵µÃ¶Ô¡£
ÐÂÕþ»³Ì¥£¬¶þÕ½·ÖÃ䣬Éú³öÒ»¸ö´óÅÖС×Ó¡£:-)
л¸÷λ´ðÒÉ¡£ÎÒµÄÎÊÌâÎʵIJ»ºÃ£¬ÎÒÆäʵÏëÎʵľÍÊÇÕâ¸ö£¬Èç¹ûµ±³õûÓжþÕ½£¬Ö»ÓÐÐÂÕþ£¬¹»²»¹»£¬¾ÍËãûÓдóÅÖС×ÓÊDz»Êǽ¡¿µµÄÊÝС×ÓÒ²ÄÜÉúÒ»¸ö¡£¸ù¾ÝtarºÍ·ÏÃû£¬ÄÜ£¬ÒòΪÓбðµÄ·½Ê½Õþ¸®»¨Ç®´Ì¼¤¾¼Ã£¬²»ÖªÏÖÔÚÊDz»ÊÇÒ²ÓС£ÒòΪ¾¼ÃÉÏÎҺܶÌÊÓ£¬¾õ×ÅÓз¹³Ô¾ÍÐÐÁ˱ðµÄ¶àµã¶ùÉÙµã¶ùÎÞËùν£¬µ«ÊÇÈç¹û±ØÐë´òÕÌÄǾÍÕæµÄºÜ±¯¹ÛÁË¡£
ÐÐÈË wrote:
ÃÀ¹úÆû³µ and Apple computer belong to perception,
¹þ¹þ£¬AppleÆäËûµÄ²úÆ·Ëãperception£¬MacOS ²»ÄÜËã°É£¬ÄãÊÇ˵WindowsÖÊÁ¿²î²»¶àµÄ¾ÍÊǹã¸æ×öµÄ²»ºÃ£¿£º£©
- posted on 11/19/2008
On the contrary, not only do I not consider myself an "expert" by just googling a word or two, I actually listen when a real expert speaks.
And then, how is the two terms you googled relevant to the assertion that only 10% of high risk loans were made to low income borrowers? Maybe you should google the word "non-sequitur" instead.
pepper wrote:
tar wrote:Funny thing you think you became an expert after reading Zxd's "research".
Nonsense! Zxd just wrote in another thread, that according to his research, only 10% of all the high risk mortgages were loaned to the low income people.
A clarification of terminology will be helpful
"Subprime" means the borrowers have low credit score, which correlates highly with low-income
"Alter-A" means the borrowers have no proof to show their income, which tends to mean people inflating their income.
Sub-prime and Alter-A loans are the most risky loans.
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2008
Good point. In the haste I forgot to mention this too.
·ÏÃû wrote:
ÐÂÕþΪÃÀ¹úÁôÏÂÖÁ½ñÈÔ´æÔÚµÄÖØÒªÒŲú£ºSocial Security and Pension, FDIC, Security and Exchange Commission, Èç½ñÊÇÉç»á±£ÕÏ°²È«ÍøºÍ¼à¹Ü±£»¤ÃÀ¹ú±ÜÃâ¾¼ÃÖص¸¸²ÕÞµÄÈý´óÖØÒª
»ùʯ¡£Á¬²¿·Ö¹²ºÍµ³Ò²²»µÃ²»³ÐÈÏÐÂÕþµÄÀúÊ·ÐÔ¹±Ïס£
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2008
ÒƵ½Á˺óÃæ¡£ - Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2008
there is a detailed discussion of new deal. Interesting that it included a ban on the competition of companies in the same industry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fdr - posted on 11/19/2008
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- posted on 11/20/2008
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»ª¶û½ÖÆäʵҲÓÐÀàËƵÄÎÊÌâ¡£ÒÔÇ°»ª¶û½ÖµÄ CEO ±ØÐëÊÇ banker »òÕß broker ³öÉí£¬ÖªµÀ deal ÊÇÔõô cut µÄ¡£ºóÀ´ÃÀÁÖÑ¡ÁË Stan O'Neal ×ö CEO¡£´ËÈËÊÇ»á¼Æ³öÉí£¬±ê×¼µÄ bean counter£¬ÉĮ̈ºóÌá°ÎÁËһȺÊý¶¹µÄ£¬ÖÕÓÚ°ÑÃÀÁÖ¸ã¿å¡£ - posted on 11/20/2008
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rzp wrote:
×îÖØÒªµÄÊÇÏÈÖªÒ²²»Êǽâ¾öÎÊÌâµÄ³ä·ÖÌõ¼þ£¬¿ÉÒÔ˵ÊDZØÒªÌõ¼þ¡£Àú´ÎΣÄѶ¼²»·¦ÏÈÖªÏÈÂÛ£¬µ«²»ÐÒµÄÊÇÏÈÖªÏÈÂÛ¶¼ÆÕ±éûÓб»´óÖÚ½ÓÊÜ¡£´ÓÊ¥¾Àï˵µÄ´óºéË®£¬Ö»ÓÐÙ¼ÑÇÌýО¯¸æ£»......µ½Õâ´Î½ðÈڷ籩£¬Ëæ±ã¾ÍÄÜÕÒ³öÒ»´ó°ÑÏÈÖª¾¯¸æ¡£ÁíÒ»·½ÃæÏÈ֪ÿ´Î¶¼¾ÈÁËÉÙÊýÈË£¬Ò²ÐíÕâ¾ÍÊÇÈËÀàµÄ³É³¤±Ø¾Ö®Í¾£¬Ò²ÐíÕâ¾ÍÊÇ×ÔÈ»·¨¹æËùÈ»£¿
ÏÈÖªÃÇÈç¹ûÏë¾È´óÖÚ£¬²»ÊÇҪ˵·þ´óÖÚÈÏͬÏÈÖªÏÈÂÛ£¬¶øÊÇÒª´øÁì´óÖÚ×ßÉÏͨÍù¹âÃ÷֮·£¬ÈçĦÎ÷ÂÊÖÚ³ö°£¼°......²»ÖªÕâ¸úÀÏÍß˵µÄ¸ãÇå³þefficiencyºÍeffectivenessµÄ²î±ðÓÐûÓйØÁª£¿ - posted on 11/20/2008
´ó²ÂÃÕ£º½ñÌìÏÂÎ綫²¿Ê±¼ä2:30ÖÚÔºÓйØÓÚ£³´óÆû³µ¹«Ë¾µÄÏûÏ¢ÒªÔÚ"Auto loan compromise press conference" ÉÏÐû²¼£¬»áÊÇÔõÑùµÄÏûÏ¢ÄØ£¿»¹ÓÐʱ¼ä¿ÉÒÔ¸øÄãµÄÒéÔ±´òºÜ¶àµç»°......
1. A fed loan to the big three? (If so, under what terms?)
2. A program to preserve existing auto loans and encourage the tightwads in auto finance to loosen up? (If so under what terms?)
3. A large hole in the ground on the outskirts of Detroit which will be filled with fresh $100 bills. (This is the cost savings option Republicans fought tooth and nail for).
- posted on 11/20/2008
Blaming the unions as the great albatrouss in America's lack of competitiveness collectively has long been the favorite trick of the right. While Grover Norquist and Newt Gingrich are celebrating the unfolding of events to their script of "starving the beast" shock therapy, we should remember it is the difference in labor cost between rich countries and developing countries which are engaged in free trade that tips the competitiveness scale to China and India and a bunch of others. In the 80's we looked on with glee as many auto workers lost their jobs to the Japanese car makers. And now we have seen many software jobs gone to Inida. Fundamentally it's not the unions that are the sole problem, it's the problem of high cost of doing business here. If we can't figure out how to stop the slide of losing jobs oversee instead of just blaming others, in 10 years they might as well close down the door and move Silicon Valley to China or something.
ÉÍʯ wrote:ÁíÒ»·´Ã棬ÕâUAW contractÒ²¾Í´ËÍê½á£¬¿ªÊ¼Ò»¸öеÄÀÍ×ʹØϵ¡£
- posted on 11/20/2008
ÏÈÖª's prophecy and the boy's crying wolf are just two sides of one coin. If I can collect the coin everytime somebody sounded an alarm of pending apocalypse I'd be rich beyond imagination. ;-)
ben ben wrote:
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rzp wrote:
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ÐÐÈË wrote:
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ÈÃMBAÀ´ÆÕû¸ö¹ú¼Ò£¬ÊǸöÀúÊ·±¯¾ç¡£ÎÒÃÇΰ´ó¡¢¹âÈÙ¡¢ÕýÈ·µÄ²¼Ê²×Üͳ²»¾ÍÊǸöÃûУMBAÂ𣿠- posted on 11/20/2008
This is insightful indeed! we just can't attribute the high labor cost all simply to the Union, which is the scapegoat and the execuses of the right. Since this crisis started, the UAW made lots of compromise and are ready to make more. Also, we can't use Asian standards as a role model- in which labors and unions have no say in a dispute, or they even have no chance to start a union in the first place though they are legally entitled to do so-like in China.
taking about labor cost, I always think that to allow more hispanics to work in this country legally is a good idea, they work in the service and construction industry without taking US jobs.
The adminstration is building a great wall along the US-Mexican border now, I bet many of the workers are illegal immrgrants from Mexico, what a ironic scene, they are building a wall to bar themselves or their relatives to enter in the future.
tar wrote:
Blaming the unions as the great albatrouss in America's lack of competitiveness collectively has long been the favorite trick of the right. While Grover Norquist and Newt Gingrich are celebrating the unfolding of events to their script of "starving the beast" shock therapy, we should remember it is the difference in labor cost between rich countries and developing countries which are engaged in free trade that tips the competitiveness scale to China and India and a bunch of others. In the 80's we looked on with glee as many auto workers lost their jobs to the Japanese car makers. And now we have seen many software jobs gone to Inida. Fundamentally it's not the unions that are the sole problem, it's the problem of high cost of doing business here. If we can't figure out how to stop the slide of losing jobs oversee instead of just blaming others, in 10 years they might as well close down the door and move Silicon Valley to China or something.
ÉÍʯ wrote:ÁíÒ»·´Ã棬ÕâUAW contractÒ²¾Í´ËÍê½á£¬¿ªÊ¼Ò»¸öеÄÀÍ×ʹØϵ¡£
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/20/2008
UAW's problem is not just about money. New technology or quality control procedure has to be proved by UAW before release to production. They have the power to veto any improvment that requests extra work or simply demands some training to workers. UAW is one of the major reason that american cars suffered such low build quality. - posted on 11/20/2008
UAW ²»½ö½öÊÇÒ»¸ölabor costµÄÎÊÌâ¡£UAWµÄÇéÐÎÈÃÎÒ×ÜÏëÆð¾ÉÖйúµÄÇàºì°ï¡£
·ÏÃû wrote:
This is insightful indeed! we just can't attribute the high labor cost all simply to the Union, which is the scapegoat and the execuses of the right. Since this crisis started, the UAW made lots of compromise and are ready to make more. Also, we can't use Asian standards as a role model- in which labors and unions have no say in a dispute, or they even have no chance to start a union in the first place though they are legally entitled to do so-like in China.
taking about labor cost, I always think that to allow more hispanics to work in this country legally is a good idea, they work in the service and construction industry without taking US jobs.
The adminstration is building a great wall along the US-Mexican border now, I bet many of the workers are illegal immrgrants from Mexico, what a ironic scene, they are building a wall to bar themselves or their relatives to enter in the future.
tar wrote:
Blaming the unions as the great albatrouss in America's lack of competitiveness collectively has long been the favorite trick of the right. While Grover Norquist and Newt Gingrich are celebrating the unfolding of events to their script of "starving the beast" shock therapy, we should remember it is the difference in labor cost between rich countries and developing countries which are engaged in free trade that tips the competitiveness scale to China and India and a bunch of others. In the 80's we looked on with glee as many auto workers lost their jobs to the Japanese car makers. And now we have seen many software jobs gone to Inida. Fundamentally it's not the unions that are the sole problem, it's the problem of high cost of doing business here. If we can't figure out how to stop the slide of losing jobs oversee instead of just blaming others, in 10 years they might as well close down the door and move Silicon Valley to China or something.
ÉÍʯ wrote:ÁíÒ»·´Ã棬ÕâUAW contractÒ²¾Í´ËÍê½á£¬¿ªÊ¼Ò»¸öеÄÀÍ×ʹØϵ¡£
- posted on 11/20/2008
Agree with you. High cost of business is a universal problem in many industries in the US, but for American auto industry, I believe UAW is the major problem.
ÐÐÈË wrote:
UAW's problem is not just about money. New technology or quality control procedure has to be proved by UAW before release to production. They have the power to veto any improvment that requests extra work or simply demands some training to workers. UAW is one of the major reason that american cars suffered such low build quality. - posted on 11/20/2008
I am glad that this time I am with my party. Below is the latest:
================================================================
Dems delay auto bailout vote, seek plan from Big 3
By KEN THOMAS and JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, Associated Press Writers Ken Thomas And Julie Hirschfeld Davis, Associated Press Writers
WASHINGTON ¨C Democratic leaders in Congress sidetracked legislation to bail out the auto industry Thursday and demanded the Big Three develop a plan assuring the money would make them economically viable. "Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money," Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said at a hastily called news conference in the Capitol.
She and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said Congress would return to work in early December to vote on legislation if General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC produce an acceptable plan.
The decision averted a likely defeat of legislation providing $25 billion loans for the industry. Reid and Pelosi said there was no plan in circulation that could pass both houses of Congress and win President George W. Bush's approval.
While the decision headed off the defeat of one bill, it did not necessarily translate into passage of a different one.
As a result, the fate of hundreds of thousands of auto workers and even of an iconic American industry hang in the balance.
The chief executives of the Big Three automakers appealed personally to lawmakers for the loans this week, and warned that their industry might collapse without them. In testimony, they said their problem was that credit was unavailable, and not that they were manufacturing products that consumers had turned their backs on.
But whatever support they found sagged when it became known that each of them had flown into Washington aboard multimillion dollar corporate jets. Reid observed that was "difficult to explain" to taxpayers in his hometown of Searchlight, Nev.
The automakers are on a tight timeline. Reid and Pelosi said their plan must be turned over to key lawmakers by Dec. 2 They said hearings were possible the first week of December, and Congress may return to session the following week to consider legislation.
Pelosi stressed that whatever the Big Three provided to Congress, it must show they had a plan for "viability and accountability," meaning that the were transforming their industry in a way that it would become competitive, and that they were clear about how the federal loan money was used.
Even if lawmakers return to vote, they are likely to insist on numerous conditions on any loans. One possibility is to seek a partial ownership of the companies. Another is to limit salaries of top executives. A third is to prohibit use of the funds for any lobbying.
Until Democratic leaders reached their agreement, the bailout had appeared headed for defeat in Congress, with the fate of hundreds of thousands of workers and Detroit's once-venerable car companies in the balance.
Reid canceled plans for a vote on a bill to carve $25 billion in new loans out of the $700 billion Wall Street rescue fund. The Bush administration and congressional Republicans oppose that plan. They prefer tapping a different source of funds that is earmarked to help the industry produce vehicles that burn less gasoline. But using those funds drew opposition from Pelosi, as well as environmentalists.
Efforts on a compromise unfolded earlier in the day, and a small group of legislators circulated a proposal that would divert the fuel-efficiency money to cover the industry's short-term financial needs, while guaranteeing that account would ultimately be replenished.
With all sides sensing doom for a Big Three automaker rescue, the finger-pointing proceeded.
White House press secretary Dana Perino on Thursday blamed Reid for not allowing the Republicans' separate auto-aid plan to come up for a vote.
"Unfortunately it looks like Sen. Reid just wants to pick up his ball and go home for the next two weeks ¡ª two months ¡ª for vacation," she said.
Pressed on what the White House would do if Congress can't agree on a plan to rescue the automakers this week, Perino said she thought lawmakers would return after the Thanksgiving holiday for an emergency legislative session if an auto company was in imminent danger of collapsing.
"I can't imagine a scenario where they wouldn't come back, unless the answer is that they just don't care. And if that's the case, then the American people ought to know that."
Congressional Democrats countered that the Treasury Department already had the power to grant emergency funds to the automakers, but the Bush administration opposed the approach.
The leaders of the Big Three automakers painted a grim picture of their financial position during two days of congressional hearings, warning that the collapse of the auto industry could lead to the loss of 3 million jobs. Detroit's automakers, hurt by a sharp drop in sales and a nearly frozen credit market, burned through nearly $18 billion in cash reserves during the last quarter ¡ª about $7 billion at GM, almost $8 billion at Ford and $3 billion at Chrysler. GM and Chrysler said they could collapse in weeks.
"I don't believe we have the luxury of a lot of time," GM CEO Rick Wagoner told a House hearing.
Alan Mulally, the CEO of Ford Motor Co., said the company had enough cash reserves to make it through 2009. But United Auto Workers union president Ron Gettelfinger said a bankruptcy could spawn others.
"If there's a Chapter 11 (for) one of the companies, it will drag at least one other with them, if not all of them. And I do not believe Chapter 11 is where it will end. It will go to liquidation," Gettelfinger said.
Automakers ran into more resistance from House lawmakers, who chastised the executives for fighting tougher fuel-efficiency standards in the past and questioned their use of private jets while at the same time seeking government handouts.
"My fear is that you're going to take this money and continue the same stupid decisions you've made for 25 years," said Rep. Michael Capuano, D-Mass.
The stakes are high. The Detroit automakers employ nearly a quarter-million workers, and more than 730,000 other workers produce materials and parts that go into cars. About 1 million more people work in dealerships nationwide. If just one of the automakers declared bankruptcy, some estimates put U.S. job losses next year as high as 2.5 million.
- posted on 11/20/2008
ÉÍʯ, I always thought your analysis on Wall Street and the financial market is quite balanced and even educational. But on UAW and unions in general, I feel you are a bit biased. Maybe you are thinking of the Teamsters tie to the mafia in the Jimmy Hoffa era, but linking UAW to gangsters is unfair.
Yes I know unions need to reform, no question about that. Their inheritance of the membership causes much consternation to the rest of the work force, and it's the chief wedge issue used by the Republicans aimed at breaking the union. Their pension and health care costs can be brought down by a universal health care system and a better retirement plan the government has to re-invent in the near future. You don't need to break the unions to solve all those problems. Remember, the unions are at the forefront in creating a more humane work condition in making capitalism a better workable system. We all have them to thank for not working 16 hours in the laissez -faire capitalism of yore.
ÉÍʯ wrote:
UAW ²»½ö½öÊÇÒ»¸ölabor costµÄÎÊÌâ¡£UAWµÄÇéÐÎÈÃÎÒ×ÜÏëÆð¾ÉÖйúµÄÇàºì°ï¡£
·ÏÃû wrote:
This is insightful indeed! we just can't attribute the high labor cost all simply to the Union, which is the scapegoat and the execuses of the right. Since this crisis started, the UAW made lots of compromise and are ready to make more. Also, we can't use Asian standards as a role model- in which labors and unions have no say in a dispute, or they even have no chance to start a union in the first place though they are legally entitled to do so-like in China.
taking about labor cost, I always think that to allow more hispanics to work in this country legally is a good idea, they work in the service and construction industry without taking US jobs.
The adminstration is building a great wall along the US-Mexican border now, I bet many of the workers are illegal immrgrants from Mexico, what a ironic scene, they are building a wall to bar themselves or their relatives to enter in the future.
tar wrote:
Blaming the unions as the great albatrouss in America's lack of competitiveness collectively has long been the favorite trick of the right. While Grover Norquist and Newt Gingrich are celebrating the unfolding of events to their script of "starving the beast" shock therapy, we should remember it is the difference in labor cost between rich countries and developing countries which are engaged in free trade that tips the competitiveness scale to China and India and a bunch of others. In the 80's we looked on with glee as many auto workers lost their jobs to the Japanese car makers. And now we have seen many software jobs gone to Inida. Fundamentally it's not the unions that are the sole problem, it's the problem of high cost of doing business here. If we can't figure out how to stop the slide of losing jobs oversee instead of just blaming others, in 10 years they might as well close down the door and move Silicon Valley to China or something.
ÉÍʯ wrote:ÁíÒ»·´Ã棬ÕâUAW contractÒ²¾Í´ËÍê½á£¬¿ªÊ¼Ò»¸öеÄÀÍ×ʹØϵ¡£
- posted on 11/20/2008
Free trade as a concept is great, but it has to base on insisting everybody playing under the same rules, which should include work conditions, environmental, and even some cost structures to even the field.
But that takes a paradigm shift in recognizing what's the best form of capitalism. The current path only leads to cannibalizing the developed society to satisfy the insatiable greed of the big business. In the end I am afraid it's not good for anybody.
·ÏÃû wrote:Also, we can't use Asian standards as a role model- in which labors and unions have no say in a dispute, or they even have no chance to start a union in the first place though they are legally entitled to do so-like in China.
- posted on 11/20/2008
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laissez -faire capitalism ¼ÈÊÇÌìʹҲÊÇħ¹í¡£Öйú´Ó¹ú¼ÒµÄ½Ç¶ÈÏÞÖÆlaissez -faire capitalism µÄħ¹íÐÔ£¬¼´¡¶ÀͶ¯·¨¡·£¬¹æ¶¨ÁËÖ°¹¤µÄ¸÷ÖÖȨÒ棬²¢ÇÒÉç»á±£ÏÕÓÉÕþ¸®Í³³ï¡£ÖйúµÄЧ¹ûºÜºÃ¡£
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tar wrote:We all have them to thank for not working 16 hours in the laissez -faire capitalism of yore.
- posted on 11/20/2008
As a rule I don't reply to your posts. (if I hurt your feelings, I apologize. ;-))
But on one of your earlier posts, your exuberant exultation of Chinese "¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå" cracked a big smile on my face in an otherwise dreary day.
;-)
abc wrote:
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laissez -faire capitalism ¼ÈÊÇÌìʹҲÊÇħ¹í¡£Öйú´Ó¹ú¼ÒµÄ½Ç¶ÈÏÞÖÆlaissez -faire capitalism µÄħ¹íÐÔ£¬¼´¡¶ÀͶ¯·¨¡·£¬¹æ¶¨ÁËÖ°¹¤µÄ¸÷ÖÖȨÒ棬²¢ÇÒÉç»á±£ÏÕÓÉÕþ¸®Í³³ï¡£ÖйúµÄЧ¹ûºÜºÃ¡£
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tar wrote:We all have them to thank for not working 16 hours in the laissez -faire capitalism of yore.
- posted on 11/20/2008
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tar wrote:
As a rule I don't reply to your posts. (if I hurt your feelings, I apologize. ;-))
But on one of your earlier posts, your exuberant exultation of Chinese "¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå" cracked a big smile on my face in an otherwise dreary day.
- posted on 11/20/2008
Do you realize "¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå" is not your original idea? ;-)
abc wrote:
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tar wrote:
As a rule I don't reply to your posts. (if I hurt your feelings, I apologize. ;-))
But on one of your earlier posts, your exuberant exultation of Chinese "¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå" cracked a big smile on my face in an otherwise dreary day.
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/21/2008
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tar wrote:
Do you realize "¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå" is not your original idea? ;-) - posted on 11/21/2008
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UAWÔÚÀúÊ·ÉϵÄ×÷Óò»¿ÉºöÊÓ¡£Èç¹û²»ÊÇorganized labor£¬½ñÌìµÄÃÀ¹úÕþÖΣ¬¾¼ÃÖƶȲ»»á±äµÃÏó½ñÌìÕâÑù¡°ÎÂÇ顱¡££¨ÎÒÕæÐÄÏ£Íû£¬ÀàËƵŤ»á×éÖ¯Äܹ»ÔÚÖйúʵÏÖ¡£ÄÇЩÔÚÉç»áµ×²ãÕõÔúµÄÈõÊÆȺÌ壬ÐèÒª×Ô¼ºµÄ×éÖ¯À´ÕùÈ¡×Ô¼ºÕýµ±µÄȨÀû¡£ÀÏAÐÖ¿´¼ûÕâ¸ö¹À¼ÆÒª´óÒ¡Í·²»ÒÔΪȻ¡£:-)) ÎÊÌâÊÇ£¬´Ó¶Áµ½£¬Ìýµ½µÄÄÇЩÇéÐο´£¬£¨ÎÒÒÔÇ°ÓиöͬÊ£¬×îÔçÔøÔÚGMµÄ×°ÅäÏßÉϹ¤×÷¹ý£¬ºóÀ´Ò²ÊÇʵÔÚ¿´²»ÏÂÈ¥£¬ÖØ»ØѧУ£¬ºóÀ´³ÉΪһ¸ö·Ç³£²»´íµÄ½»Ò×Ô±¡££©£¬ÔÚ¹ýÈ¥µÄ30-40ÄêÀ¹¤»áÒѾ³ÉΪÆóÒµÌá¸ßÉú²úЧÂʺ;ºÕùÁ¦µÄÖØÒªÕÏ°¡£ÎÒ¸öÈ˵Ŀ´·¨£¬UAWÐèÒª¸Ä¸ï£¬ÓÈÆäÊÇËûÃǵÄleadership¡£´«Í³µÄ¹¤»á×éÖ¯°ì·¨£¬ºÍÏÖÔÚµÄÉç»áÏÖ×´Ïà¾àÌ«Ô¶ÁË¡£
´ÓÉç»á¼ÛÖµ¹Û¿´£¬¹¤»á³ÉÔ±Ï൱±£ÊØ¡£ËùνµÄReagan Democrats¾ø´ó²¿·ÖÀ´×ÔÓÚËûÃÇ¡£
tar wrote:
ÉÍʯ, I always thought your analysis on Wall Street and the financial market is quite balanced and even educational. But on UAW and unions in general, I feel you are a bit biased. Maybe you are thinking of the Teamsters tie to the mafia in the Jimmy Hoffa era, but linking UAW to gangsters is unfair.
Yes I know unions need to reform, no question about that. Their inheritance of the membership causes much consternation to the rest of the work force, and it's the chief wedge issue used by the Republicans aimed at breaking the union. Their pension and health care costs can be brought down by a universal health care system and a better retirement plan the government has to re-invent in the near future. You don't need to break the unions to solve all those problems. Remember, the unions are at the forefront in creating a more humane work condition in making capitalism a better workable system. We all have them to thank for not working 16 hours in the laissez -faire capitalism of yore.
ÉÍʯ wrote:
UAW ²»½ö½öÊÇÒ»¸ölabor costµÄÎÊÌâ¡£UAWµÄÇéÐÎÈÃÎÒ×ÜÏëÆð¾ÉÖйúµÄÇàºì°ï¡£
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/21/2008
Just go google ¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå, and you will find the master theoretical work has been done in a book called "Mein Kampf." ;-)
abc wrote:
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µ«"¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷ÒåÆóÒµ×ʱ¾Ö÷Òå" ÎÒÒÔǰû¼û¹ý£¬ÎÒ˵ÊÇÔ´´Ã»´í¡£Ô´´ÓëÊ×´´ÓÐÇø±ð£¬ÄãÓ¦¸ÃÃ÷°×¡£
tar wrote:
Do you realize "¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå" is not your original idea? ;-) - posted on 11/21/2008
As always, you are just being too polite. No need to apologize for anything. ;-)
I disagree with your assertion that union members are more conservative. I think they don't vote politically with their leadership all the time, which is always liberal. But the breakdown always reflects the country as a whole. And in the last two presidential elections more of them voted for the democrats rather than bush, I think.
ÉÍʯ wrote:
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´ÓÉç»á¼ÛÖµ¹Û¿´£¬¹¤»á³ÉÔ±Ï൱±£ÊØ¡£ËùνµÄReagan Democrats¾ø´ó²¿·ÖÀ´×ÔÓÚËûÃÇ¡£
tar wrote:
ÉÍʯ, I always thought your analysis on Wall Street and the financial market is quite balanced and even educational. But on UAW and unions in general, I feel you are a bit biased. Maybe you are thinking of the Teamsters tie to the mafia in the Jimmy Hoffa era, but linking UAW to gangsters is unfair.
Yes I know unions need to reform, no question about that. Their inheritance of the membership causes much consternation to the rest of the work force, and it's the chief wedge issue used by the Republicans aimed at breaking the union. Their pension and health care costs can be brought down by a universal health care system and a better retirement plan the government has to re-invent in the near future. You don't need to break the unions to solve all those problems. Remember, the unions are at the forefront in creating a more humane work condition in making capitalism a better workable system. We all have them to thank for not working 16 hours in the laissez -faire capitalism of yore.
ÉÍʯ wrote:
UAW ²»½ö½öÊÇÒ»¸ölabor costµÄÎÊÌâ¡£UAWµÄÇéÐÎÈÃÎÒ×ÜÏëÆð¾ÉÖйúµÄÇàºì°ï¡£
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/21/2008
ÄãÊÇË£¿£º) ABCËûÔÚѧ×öËÕ¸ñÀµ×£¬¾ÍÊÇÉúÍíÁË¡£ºÇºÇ¡£
tar wrote:
Just go google ¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå, and you will find the master theoretical work has been done in a book called "Mein Kampf." ;-)
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/21/2008
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ÎÒ¾õµÃ£¬Ö»ÓÐÕþ¸®²ÅÄÜÕæÕý½â¾öÉç»áµ×²ãÕõÔúµÄÈõÊÆȺÌåµÄÎÊÌâ¡£±ÈÈç½ÌÓý£¬Ãñ¼äµÄÏ£ÍûСѧ¸ù±¾½â¾ö²»ÁËÎÊÌ⣬ÕæÕýÄܽâ¾öÎÊÌâµÄ»¹ÊÇ¡¶ÒåÎñ½ÌÓý·¨¡·ºÍÕþ¸®²¦¿î¡£
ÉÍʯ wrote:£¨ÎÒÕæÐÄÏ£Íû£¬ÀàËƵŤ»á×éÖ¯Äܹ»ÔÚÖйúʵÏÖ¡£ÄÇЩÔÚÉç»áµ×²ãÕõÔúµÄÈõÊÆȺÌ壬ÐèÒª×Ô¼ºµÄ×éÖ¯À´ÕùÈ¡×Ô¼ºÕýµ±µÄȨÀû¡£ÀÏAÐÖ¿´¼ûÕâ¸ö¹À¼ÆÒª´óÒ¡Í·²»ÒÔΪȻ¡£:-)) > - Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/21/2008
Just trying to milk some fun at his expense. These days it's hard to smile with the daily 500 point drop on Wall Street. ;-)
ben ben wrote:
ÄãÊÇË£¿£º) ABCËûÔÚѧ×öËÕ¸ñÀµ×£¬¾ÍÊÇÉúÍíÁË¡£ºÇºÇ¡£
tar wrote:
Just go google ¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå, and you will find the master theoretical work has been done in a book called "Mein Kampf." ;-) - posted on 11/21/2008
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(ZT) From London Financial Time
Unadulterated version of China¡¯s growth
By David Pilling
Published: November 12 2008 19:31 | Last updated: November 12 2008 19:31
Chinese statistics and Chinese milk packaging have something in common. Do not believe what you read on the label. Just as state-owned companies allowed suppliers to boost the supposed protein content of infant milk powder with melamine, an industrial plastic, so state-controlled statisticians have sometimes doctored official figures to suit the Communist party¡¯s needs.
The goal has been smooth growth. Thus state figures have sometimes underestimated true expansion. Likewise, in the previous slowdown, when electricity generation stalled, economic activity mysteriously rumbled on unaffected. Thus when we learn that China will, over two years, pump Rmb4,000bn ($586bn, €466bn) into an economy growing at ¡°only¡± 9 per cent a year ¨C a veritable comedown from the 10-12 per cent an octane-fuelled populace has come to expect ¨C we should sniff the contents suspiciously.
Equity and commodity markets initially cavorted in response to signs that China, the world¡¯s only super-economy still going strong, was acting decisively to ensure things stayed that way. But, as the subsequent market sag hinted, the stimulus package may not be all that it seems. Real growth rates may already be lower than official figures purport. Stephen Roach, chairman of Morgan Stanley Asia, says Beijing is acting as though it is ¡°panicked¡±, suggesting that economic activity may have dipped below the 8 per cent Chinese observers, in their questionable wisdom, have determined as the level required to keep social unrest in check.
Certainly, anecdotal evidence suggests that output sank alarmingly last month, far more quickly than anyone imagined was possible just weeks ago. Here, a big chemicals company reports that orders fell by half in October. There, a banker that thousands of labour-intensive factories in Guangdong, the engine-room of China¡¯s export-led miracle, have disappeared almost overnight.
Export growth has slowed, but not yet stopped, suggesting there is worse to come. Without stimulus ¨C if things go terribly wrong, perhaps even with it ¨C economists are wondering whether growth could shrink to 6 per cent, at least for a quarter or two.
The sudden slowdown was not made in Wall Street. It originated in decisions adopted last year to take the heat out of a boiling property market ¨C partly because of fears, now evaporated, about inflation. Banks were told to curtail lending to the property sector. Property developers were obliged to build lower-income housing and buying a second home was made more difficult.
China¡¯s policies contrasted with those in the US and Europe, where it was beyond the remit of independent central banks to try to tame asset prices. But bursting bubbles, even in a command economy, is not that easy. Instead of taking the froth off the property market, Beijing has drained it dry. ¡°They thought they were fine tuning,¡± says Arthur Kroeber, managing director of Dragonomics. ¡°But China remains a boom-and-bust 19th century economy.¡±
If attempts to ease growth lower have misfired, efforts to ratchet it up again may not go so well either. Ben Simpfendorfer at Royal Bank of Scotland says he is wowed by the sheer amount of money Beijing is chucking at the problem ¨C at least 3 per cent of gross domestic product a year, even if one discounts half the announced investments as money already pledged. But China¡¯s ¡°increasingly market driven economy¡± may sink more quickly than new funds can be deployed, he says.
Mr Simpfendorfer cites the housing market, worth about 7 per cent of GDP and now largely in private hands. Even if banks are instructed to lend, property developers cannot be obliged to borrow, putting the government at one stage removed from direct control over economic levers. Ten years ago, when most housing was public, turning the investment tap off and then on again was much easier.
Western governments, with newly acquired control over their once private financial systems, can hardly fail to sympathise with China¡¯s efforts to cajole banks into funnelling state money towards the real economy. Nor is Beijing alone in exaggerating the size and potential impact of stimulus efforts. Japan has turned double-counting into a comic art form. Yet, given the need to reassure shaken consumers, selling old money as new may not be bad policy.
China is a centrally planned system in a slow, uneven transition to a market economy. The US and Europe have, perforce, taken a step in the opposite direction. Neither can turn their economies on a dime.
Certainly, China¡¯s demographics, continuing mass urbanisation and the scope for improving productivity almost guarantee that fast growth will resume. But anyone who imagines that China possesses the immediate firepower to haul the world out of recession should run some lab tests. Like its dairy products, the China growth story is not quite as unadulterated as it seems.
david.pilling@ft.com
- posted on 11/23/2008
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tar wrote:
Do you realize "¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå" is not your original idea? ;-)
abc wrote:
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tar wrote:
As a rule I don't reply to your posts. (if I hurt your feelings, I apologize. ;-))
But on one of your earlier posts, your exuberant exultation of Chinese "¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷Òå" cracked a big smile on my face in an otherwise dreary day.
- posted on 11/23/2008
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http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/7217272.html ¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷ÒåÆäÖÐnationalism Ô´ÓÚnation ººÓï¼È¿ÉÒÔÒëΪ¹ú¼Ò£¬ÓÖ¿ÉÒÔÒëΪÃñ×å¡£µ½µ×ʲôÊÇÉç»áÖ÷Ò壬¿ÉÒÔ˵ÊÇÖÚ˵·×ç¡¡£ÎÒ¹ú¹Ù·½Ðû´«µ±È»ÒÔÂí¿Ë˼¹²²úÖ÷Òåѧ˵Ϊ»ù×¼¡£Êµ¼ÊÉÏÂí¿Ë˼֮ǰÉç»áÖ÷ÒåÕâÒ»³Æν¾Í³öÏÖÁË¡£Á÷ÅÉ»¹Õæ²»ÉÙ¡£
ÄÉ´âµÄ¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷ÒåʵÖÊÊÇÃñ×åÖ÷Ò壬ºËÐÄÊÇÃñ×å¾»»¯ºÍÃñ×åÕñÐË¡£ÄÉ´âµÄ¡°Éç»áÖ÷Ò塱ΪÃñ×åÕñÐË·þÎñ£¬ÒÔ¹ú¼ÒµÄÁ¦Á¿ÊÕ¹ººÍÐË°ìÆóÒµ£¬½â¾ö¾¼ÃΣ»úÔì³ÉµÄÆƲú£¬Ê§ÒµÎÊÌ⣬Ч¹ûÊÇÁ¢¸Ë¼ûÓ°£¬µÃµ½¹ã´óÈËÃñµÄÓµ»¤£¬Å¤×ª¾¼ÃÍÇÊÆ£¬°ÚÍÑÁËΣ»ú¡£´ó¹æÄ£µÄ¹úÓл¯£¬¾¼ÃÄÉÈë¹ú¼Ò¼Æ»®£¬ÐÎʽÉϲ»¾ÍÊÇÉç»áÖ÷ÒåÉ«²ÊÁËÂ𣿶øʵ¼ÊÉÏÒ»Çж¼ÊÇΪ׼±¸Õ½Õù·þÎñ£¬ÎäÁ¦À©ÕÅÒ»¸´Ð˵¹ú¡£ÕâÖÖģʽµÄ¾ÑéÈ´Ô´×ÔËÕÁª£¬ËÕµÂÁ½¹úÔÚ¿ªÕ½ÒÔÇ°¹Øϵ·Çͬһ°ã£¬µÂ¹ú¶ÔËÕÁªÓÐÏ൱µÄÁ˽â,½Ó¼ûÁËËÕÁªÄ£Ê½¡£ËÕÁªÈ«Ã湫ÓÐÖƸ߶ȼ¯Öеļƻ®¾¼ÃģʽÊÇÍêÍêÈ«È«·ûºÏÂí¶÷ÁÐһϵÁоµäÀíÂ۹淶µÄ£¬ÆäËûµÄ¸÷ÖÖ±äÖÖ¶¼¿ÉÒÔ»®ÈëÐÞÕýÖ÷ÒåÐÐÁС£
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism Nationalism can refer to an ideology, sentiment, a form of culture, or a social movement that focuses on the nation.[1] While there is significant debate over the historical origins of nations, nearly all specialists accept that nationalism, at least as an ideology and social movement, is a modern phenomenon originating in Europe.[2] Precisely where and when it emerged is difficult to determine, but its development is closely related to that of the modern state and the push for popular sovereignty that came to a head with the French Revolution in the late eighteenth century. Since that time, nationalism has become one of the most significant political and social forces in history, perhaps most notably as a cause of both the First and Second World Wars.
As an ideology, nationalism holds that 'the people' in the doctrine of popular sovereignty is the nation, and that as a result only nation-states founded on the principle of national self-determination are legitimate. Since most states are multinational, or at least home to more than one group claiming national status,[3] the pursuit of this principle has often led to conflict, and nationalism is commonly associated with war (both external and domestic), secession, and even genocide in contexts ranging from imperial conquest to struggles for national liberation.
Nationalism does not always lead to violence, however, and it plays an integral role in the daily lives of most people around the world. Flags on buildings, the singing of national anthems in schools and at public events, and cheering for national sports teams are all examples of everyday, 'banal' nationalism that is often unselfconscious.[4] Moreover, some scholars argue that nationalism as a sentiment or form of culture, sometimes described as 'nationality' to avoid the ideology's tarnished reputation, is the social foundation of modern society. Industrialization, democratization, and support for economic redistribution have all been at least partly attributed to the shared social context and solidarity that nationalism provides.[5][6][7]
Nevertheless, nationalism remains a hotly contested subject on which there is little general consensus. The clearest example of opposition to nationalism is cosmopolitanism, with adherents as diverse as liberals, Marxists, and anarchists, but even nationalism's defenders often disagree on its virtues, and it is common for nationalists of one persuasion to disparage the aspirations of others for both principled and strategic reasons. Indeed, the only fact about nationalism that is not in dispute may be that few other social phenomena have had a more enduring impact on the modern world
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the free lunch is coming to the main street near you (from the fed)
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will stop foreclosure, will modify the loans until you can afford it
if you want to get paid for a work out, why not sign on the road build team? - posted on 11/25/2008
History often repeats itself, but this time, in a good way. People have been talking about New New Deal, which seems to be in the making while Obama's
powerful economic team emerged.
Yesterday,Summers provided with some interesting suggestions concerning economic recovery plan which has strong policy implications for the brand new adminstration, it includes helping the jobless by providing food stamps and more comprehensive unemployment insurance; building infrastructure and promoting green energy, some tax cuts for the middle class, and so on.
Obama vows he is not going to see the Big Three vanish become of their strong impact on the economy. I think he acts properly by pressuring the current adm. to shift the attention from the Wall Street to the Main Street without criticizing the ongoing bailout which is necessary. It is also a good position for him to insist on not to handout a blank check to the Big Three CEOs, who are carpooling to DC next time to appeal for help again (a good PR gesture for them:). I think they are getting at least partial help they desperately need from the Hill. Afterall, the auto workers are innocent, they are caught between the managment and UAW, and they didn't make the decison to build big SUVs, they deserve to be bailed out.
There is no doubt the tough situation will continue for quite a while, months or even years, but Obama's appointing Geithner as Treasury Secretary is a turning point for both Wall Street and Main Street as well. Not like Paulson, he understands Wall Street, but not too close to it. ( I also think Robert Rubin is a nice humble man, but he is not in the team, he has helped to save Mexico when they were in financial crisis in the 90s, Clinton said he is the best Treasure Secretary since Hamilton, however, he is blaimed for current crisis now:) which I don't think it is completely fair. I had attened one of his lectures in 1999, he said, the quality of a decision should be judged by the conditions when making the decision, not afterward)
Talking about building road,I am the Vice President of my homeowner association, we had completed several projects including building roads and bridges-- without getting paid:)
pepper wrote:
the free lunch is coming to the main street near you (from the fed)
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will stop foreclosure, will modify the loans until you can afford it
if you want to get paid for a work out, why not sign on the road build team? - Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/25/2008
I forgot to mention that the home builders are also asking for 125 B bailout.
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/25/2008
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ÓÐ ¾ä »° ˵ £¬ Ö» ÓÐ Ò» °Ñ ´¸ ×Ó µÄ ÈË £¬ ÿ ¸ö ÎÊ Ìâ ¶¼ Æð ¿´ À´ Ïó ¶¤ ×Ó ¡£ ¶Ô »õ ±Ò ÓÐ ÑÐ ¾¿ µÄ £¬ Ò» ÇÐ ½ð ÈÚ ÎÊ Ìâ ¶¼ ÊÇ »õ ±Ò ÎÊ Ìâ £» ¶Ô Õ½ Õù ÓÐ ÑÐ ¾¿ µÄ (Èç ´Ó Ç° ÀÏ Ã« Ëû ÃÇ )£¬ ¾ ¼Ã ÎÊ Ìâ Àà ËÆ ÓÚ ¾ü Ê ÎÊ Ìâ £» ϲ »¶ ³´ ¹É µÄ £¬ Ò» ÇÐ ÎÊ Ìâ ÓÖ ¶¼ ͬ ¹É Ʊ ÓÐ ¹Ø ¡£
Õý Ëù ν ÈÊ Õß ¼ûÈÊ £¬ ÖÇ Õß ¼û ÖÇ £¬ ²Æ Ö÷ ¼û Ç® £¬ ˧ ¸ç ¼û ÃÀÅ® ¡£ »ò Ðí ´ó ¼Ò ¶¼ ÓÐ ¼¸ ·Ý Àí £¬ Ö» ÊÇ ÓРʱ ²» Öª Æä ¶È £¬Ïë Óà һ Á½ ¸ö±ä Á¿ À´³ä ·Ö ½â ÊͲ¢ Ô¤ ²â Ò» ¸ö ¿ª ·Å ¸´ ÔÓ µÄ Ìå ϵ £¬ Õâ Ñù ÏÔ È» »á Ì« Ãã Ç¿ ¡£
¿à¹Ï wrote:
ÓÖ¿´µ½»õ±ÒÕ½ÕùµÄ×÷Õß×î½üµÄÑÔÂÛ£¬²»ÖªµÀΪʲô£¬¸Ð¾õºÜ²î¡£ËäÈ»ËûÔø¾¿´µ½¹ý½ðÈÚ·½ÃæµÄÎÊÌ⣬ÏÖÔڵĽǶÈÈ´ÓÐЩ×ß»ðÈëħ¡£¹ý·ÖÇ¿µ÷»õ±ÒµÄÖ÷µ¼µØ룬ÕæʵµÄÇé¿ö»õ±ÒÒ²¾ÍÊÇÒ»ÖÖµ÷ÅäÉç»áÔË×÷µÄ¹¤¾ß£¬ÍòÍò²»¿ÉÃÔÐÅËüµÄ³¬×ÔÈ»¹¦ÄÜ¡£ÆÕͨÀÏ°ÙÐÕ£¬Í¨¹ýΣ»ú°Ñ»õ±Ò¿´µÁË£¬µ¹ÊǺÃÊ£¬¿ÉÒÔÓо«Á¦²ÎÎòÈÕ³£Éú»îÀïһЩÆäËüµÄ¶«Î÷ÁË¡£ - posted on 11/25/2008
feiming wrote:
Afterall, the auto workers are innocent, they are caught between the managment and UAW, and they didn't make the decison to build big SUVs, they deserve to be bailed out.
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·ÏÃû wrote:
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·ÏÃû wrote:
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Do you deserve making more money than Chinese workers? Do you even deserve making more money than UAW workers? The time you spent wasting time on internet during work hours answers the second question.
Now answer the first question carefully before overheating the neuron circuitry in your grey mush.
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- posted on 11/26/2008
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tar wrote:
Do you deserve making more money than Chinese workers? Do you even deserve making more money than UAW workers? The time you spent wasting time on internet during work hours answers the second question.
Now answer the first question carefully before overheating the neuron circuitry in your grey mush.
Excellent questions! Let me answer one at a time:
Question 1: Do you deserve making more money than Chinese workers?
Answer: I do. Even when I was in China my salary was already twice higher than the average factory workers. I don¡¯t have a rich daddy. I designed a device that made a break-through in a technical field, for which my name is on the Chinese patent as the primary inventor. Today if I go back to China I still can technically beat the Chinese workers in ANY industry - even those heavy physical labors. I do 100 push-ups everyday. How many can you do?
Question 2: Do you even deserve making more money than UAW workers?
Answer: Of course, I do. My first job in USA I made only $34,000 annually, which was a lot lower than the UAW workers. My education, hard-working, motivation, and creativity made the difference. In 1998 I was promoted to a senior management position in a 7600-employee company. From that moment I make more than average UAW workers no matter which employer I serve. I never ask for pay raise. I don¡¯t need a union to keep my job or anything.
OK, you think I spent too much time on the Internet? Yes, I do. If you and I are lucky enough to work for the same organization, I would be able to trace every moment you stay online - every mouse click you make, every key stroke you hit, every email you send, and every page you surf. Unless you violate the law, I will leave you alone. If that indeed is the case, I will collect and handle every piece of court-accepted evidence in a scrupulously careful manner, maintain the integrity of the evidence with chain of custody, and testify in the court of law that you are the one who actually did it. Usually, the disgruntled employee gets fired and arrested on the same day in the same place.
Does that address all your questions or concerns?
- posted on 11/26/2008
¹þ¹þɵЦ,
Last time you flipped the switch in your faulty brain and couldn't stop laughing hysterically. But now your hallucination has taken you to the new height that you are actually imagining firing and sending your virtual enemy to an imaginary prison, this is the only way you can get it off after a humiliation? Don't you know telling everybody you work for the FBI is more scary? (Shhh, the answer is, well, actually no, you are just too dumb a lunatic to pull off a scam of any kind, let alone scare off people. ;-))
Alas, you enjoyment won't last - you forgot just one thing: anytime you come back here, I will give you a thrash so painful that pretty soon you'd have to run back to the asylum voluntarily and inventing more technical devices (or maybe that's the electrical shock thingy they tie to your body?) and being promoted to manage the entire country, in your head.
That is a promise I can damn sure keep. Really, try come back here every day and refrain from your uncontrollable desire to giggle, and I will make you my bitch in no time.
Btw, do they force you to do pushups in the asylum if you violate a rule or something? Now give me 10 for losing the "chain of costody" of your mental faculty. ;-)
¹þ¹þһЦ wrote:
tar wrote:Excellent questions! Let me answer one at a time:
Do you deserve making more money than Chinese workers? Do you even deserve making more money than UAW workers? The time you spent wasting time on internet during work hours answers the second question.
Now answer the first question carefully before overheating the neuron circuitry in your grey mush.
Question 1: Do you deserve making more money than Chinese workers?
Answer: I do. Even when I was in China my salary was already twice higher than the average factory workers. I don¡¯t have a rich daddy. I designed a device that made a break-through in a technical field, for which my name is on the Chinese patent as the primary inventor. Today if I go back to China I still can technically beat the Chinese workers in ANY industry - even those heavy physical labors. I do 100 push-ups everyday. How many can you do?
Question 2: Do you even deserve making more money than UAW workers?
Answer: Of course, I do. My first job in USA I made only $34,000 annually, which was a lot lower than the UAW workers. My education, hard-working, motivation, and creativity made the difference. In 1998 I was promoted to a senior management position in a 7600-employee company. From that moment I make more than average UAW workers no matter which employer I serve. I never ask for pay raise. I don¡¯t need a union to keep my job or anything.
OK, you think I spent too much time on the Internet? Yes, I do. If you and I are lucky enough to work for the same organization, I would be able to trace every moment you stay online - every mouse click you make, every key stroke you hit, every email you send, and every page you surf. Unless you violate the law, I will leave you alone. If that indeed is the case, I will collect and handle every piece of court-accepted evidence in a scrupulously careful manner, maintain the integrity of the evidence with chain of custody, and testify in the court of law that you are the one who actually did it. Usually, the disgruntled employee gets fired and arrested on the same day in the same place.
Does that address all your questions or concerns?
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/26/2008
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- posted on 11/26/2008
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- posted on 11/26/2008
tar wrote:
¹þ¹þɵЦ,
Last time you flipped the switch in your faulty brain and couldn't stop laughing hysterically. But now your hallucination has taken you to the new height that you are actually imagining firing and sending your virtual enemy to an imaginary prison, this is the only way you can get it off after a humiliation? Don't you know telling everybody you work for the FBI is more scary? (Shhh, the answer is, well, actually no, you are just too dumb a lunatic to pull off a scam of any kind, let alone scare off people. ;-))
Alas, you enjoyment won't last - you forgot just one thing: anytime you come back here, I will give you a thrash so painful that pretty soon you'd have to run back to the asylum voluntarily and inventing more technical devices (or maybe that's the electrical shock thingy they tie to your body?) and being promoted to manage the entire country, in your head.
That is a promise I can damn sure keep. Really, try come back here every day and refrain from your uncontrollable desire to giggle, and I will make you my bitch in no time.
Btw, do they force you to do pushups in the asylum if you violate a rule or something? Now give me 10 for losing the "chain of costody" of your mental faculty. ;-)
Oops, I am shaking, I am soooooooo scared.....
Come on! You seem to be so unhappy, angry, hateful, negative, and stressed all the time. Is that due to Prop. 8 or your job loss? Or, did he dump you recently? Come on! No matter what happens, you need to be positive and realistic. If you can¡¯t maintain a good attitude, then I would strongly recommend that you see a psychiatric doctor ASAP, and get some treatment before it is too late. There is already a tragedy in Bay area, and we don¡¯t want to see another. Normally, the psychiatric service in your area is free for your status. We the tax payers will cover all your expenses. There is also a free HIV test for you. So what are you waiting for? Hurry!
Also, please keep in your mind that the economic crisis will be over in a few years. You need to sit down with him (if you are still with him) and make a good transition plan ¨C suck as: re-negotiate your mortgage with your lender in order to keep your condo, find a seasonal job so that you won¡¯t live on the street, ask your credit card bank to give you more time to pay off the debt, etc. Don¡¯t take Chapter 13 if you can avoid it. That¡¯s the last resort.
Does that sound like a plan for you? I wish you are happy now. - posted on 11/26/2008
¹þ¹þ½©Ð¦,
7 o'clock, first thing in the morning! What's the matter? Tossing and turning all night and still can't come up with anything original? I ask you about the nuthouse you've been committed to and you reply with "psychiatric help", at least the associative function still works in that misfiring neural graveyard of yours. Did I tell you you are an idiot already? ;-)
And you really believe that if you shut your eyes and clinch your teeth and strain the sh*t out of your facial muscles all the ill wishes you stew in your hateful soul will come true? Can that "device" you "invented" in China help you?
Let's see, you wish you could see every minute every web page I go to and then wish my boss firing me on the spot; failing that, you just wish I am already jobless and homeless. Well try it again, this time really imagine you are in a happy place, and don't forget to strain you bowel muscles as well and empty its content in your trousers. ;-)
You also wish all the companies drop health plans for their gay employees; and failing that, wish I am a gay (although I don't see how that's an insult). That hasn't quite work out for you either. Now this time drop to your knees and do 10 pushups (I bet you can't even do 5!), and jump up and down like the lunatic you are and bang your forehead on the wall 10 times.
The ultimate wish in your racist mind would be spreading a fairy dust and turn me in to a black person, wouldn't even the thought of that make your heart skip a beat and turn apoplectic? You have to work harder on that magic device you "invented" back in China. Did Mao himself give you a medal for that so you became a Mao lover?
A Mao loving racist homophobic lunetic dote. What a combo. Now go spend the whole day subdue your desire to laugh uncontrollably.
¹þ¹þһЦ wrote:
tar wrote:Oops, I am shaking, I am soooooooo scared.....
¹þ¹þɵЦ,
Last time you flipped the switch in your faulty brain and couldn't stop laughing hysterically. But now your hallucination has taken you to the new height that you are actually imagining firing and sending your virtual enemy to an imaginary prison, this is the only way you can get it off after a humiliation? Don't you know telling everybody you work for the FBI is more scary? (Shhh, the answer is, well, actually no, you are just too dumb a lunatic to pull off a scam of any kind, let alone scare off people. ;-))
Alas, you enjoyment won't last - you forgot just one thing: anytime you come back here, I will give you a thrash so painful that pretty soon you'd have to run back to the asylum voluntarily and inventing more technical devices (or maybe that's the electrical shock thingy they tie to your body?) and being promoted to manage the entire country, in your head.
That is a promise I can damn sure keep. Really, try come back here every day and refrain from your uncontrollable desire to giggle, and I will make you my bitch in no time.
Btw, do they force you to do pushups in the asylum if you violate a rule or something? Now give me 10 for losing the "chain of costody" of your mental faculty. ;-)
Come on! You seem to be so unhappy, angry, hateful, negative, and stressed all the time. Is that due to Prop. 8 or your job loss? Or, did he dump you recently? Come on! No matter what happens, you need to be positive and realistic. If you can¡¯t maintain a good attitude, then I would strongly recommend that you see a psychiatric doctor ASAP, and get some treatment before it is too late. There is already a tragedy in Bay area, and we don¡¯t want to see another. Normally, the psychiatric service in your area is free for your status. We the tax payers will cover all your expenses. There is also a free HIV test for you. So what are you waiting for? Hurry!
Also, please keep in your mind that the economic crisis will be over in a few years. You need to sit down with him (if you are still with him) and make a good transition plan ¨C suck as: re-negotiate your mortgage with your lender in order to keep your condo, find a seasonal job so that you won¡¯t live on the street, ask your credit card bank to give you more time to pay off the debt, etc. Don¡¯t take Chapter 13 if you can avoid it. That¡¯s the last resort.
Does that sound like a plan for you? I wish you are happy now. - Re: ´Ó»ª¶û½Öµ½Ö÷½Öµ½ÏïÕ½posted on 11/26/2008
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- posted on 11/26/2008
¹þ¹þһЦºÍtarÖî¾ý£º
ÎÒ²»ÊÇÔÚ×öºÏÊÂÀУ¬ µ«ÊÇÎÒ¾õµÃ»¨ºÜ¶à¾«Á¦Æ«ÀëÌÖÂÛµÄÖ÷Ìâ²»»®Ë㣨µ±È»£¬ÄãÃÇÁ©ÈËÃîÓïÁªÖ飬ÈÃÎÒ¶ÁÁËÈÌ¿¡²»½û£º£©£¬ÔÚÕùÂÛµÄʱºòÓÐcross-fireºÜºÃ£¬µ«ÊDz»ÓÃtake it personal.
tar, ²»ÂÛ¹ÛµãÈçºÎ£¬·¢±í³öÀ´ÎÞ·Á£¬ ÓеÀÊÇÎÒÊÄËÀ·´¶ÔÄãµÄ¹Ûµã£¬µ«ÊÄËÀº´ÎÀÄã˵»°È¨Àû¡£ ¹þ¹þһЦÐÖ£¬ÄãÓÐרÀûÓз¢Ã÷£¬ÏÖÔÚÊǹÜÀí²ãÊǾ«Ó¢elite£¬ as a Chinese,I am so proud of you, but wish you have a big heart ( maybe you do) to feel the pain of those who are going through their ordeal now--like those auto workers, I also believe, that they have the right to unionize to protect their rights.
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- posted on 11/26/2008
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·ÏÃûÐÖ, I couldn't agree with you more. That's the way I see myself operating: I will fight to death for anybody's right to express his stupid opinions, but I also will make fun of these stupid opinions and the idiots who harbor them. And don't worry about the off topics posts once a while. If by changing of pace I can make you smile a little bit, even nothing else, it's not a bad thing right? ;-)
I am reading an article on New Yorker chronicling step-by-step how the market spiraled out of control since the summer of last year. And at each turning point the fed's reaction is just throwing a cup of water at a burning forrest, starting from some lending programs by the intials of TAF, etc. It's like in a nightmare where you know bad thing is going to happen and yet helpless to try to stop it.
Looking back, it's hard to believe that anybody can really do something drastically enough to halt the slide to this insanity. Sure there were a few economists sounding alarms here and there, but can't buckle the prevailing othodoxy that market can correct itself.
You could probably fault Bernanke for not rescuing the Lehman Co., but Bear Stern rescue only delayed the collapse by a few months. So hard to say if he did rescue The Lehman Brothers things can really change.
Have a great Holiday everybody.
·ÏÃû wrote:
¹þ¹þһЦºÍtarÖî¾ý£º
ÎÒ²»ÊÇÔÚ×öºÏÊÂÀУ¬ µ«ÊÇÎÒ¾õµÃ»¨ºÜ¶à¾«Á¦Æ«ÀëÌÖÂÛµÄÖ÷Ìâ²»»®Ë㣨µ±È»£¬ÄãÃÇÁ©ÈËÃîÓïÁªÖ飬ÈÃÎÒ¶ÁÁËÈÌ¿¡²»½û£º£©£¬ÔÚÕùÂÛµÄʱºòÓÐcross-fireºÜºÃ£¬µ«ÊDz»ÓÃtake it personal.
tar, ²»ÂÛ¹ÛµãÈçºÎ£¬·¢±í³öÀ´ÎÞ·Á£¬ ÓеÀÊÇÎÒÊÄËÀ·´¶ÔÄãµÄ¹Ûµã£¬µ«ÊÄËÀº´ÎÀÄã˵»°È¨Àû¡£ ¹þ¹þһЦÐÖ£¬ÄãÓÐרÀûÓз¢Ã÷£¬ÏÖÔÚÊǹÜÀí²ãÊǾ«Ó¢elites£¬ as a Chinese,I am so proud of you, but wish you have a big heart ( maybe you do) to feel the pain of those who are going through their ordeal now--like those auto workers, I also believe, they have the right to unionize to protect their rights.
ÎÒ²»ÊÇ˵ÎÒ×öµÄºÃ£¬ÒòΪ¹ú¼ÒÉç»áÖ÷ÒåµÄÃû´Ê½âÊÍ£¬ÎÒ¹ýÓÚÖ±½Ó£¬Ò²Â£²»×¡»ð£¬ABC£¬¶Ô²»×¡£¬ ÔٴεÀǸ£¨Äã¿ÉÊÇÍøÉÏÍø϶¼ËãµÚÒ»¸ö˵ÎÒ²»ºñµÀµÄÈË£¬ Ï£Íûƽ·´£º£©£¬ÎÒ×òÌìÒѾɾ³ý²¿·Ö¿ÉÄÜÉËÈË»òÒýÆðÎó½âµÄÓ¢Îľä×Ó¡£µ«ÎÒͬʱϣÍûÄã¶Ô¿àÄÑÓиü¶àͬÇéÐĶø²»ÊÇÍêȫרעÀûÒæÕ½ÂԵIJ©ÞÄ¡£911±¯¾çÒÔºó£¬ ËЦËÀÄÑÕß˵»î¸ÃÎÒ¾Íͬ˲»¹²´÷Ì죻ÖйúµØÕ𣬠ÎÒûÓÐÌý˵ÃÀ¹úÓÐËΪ´ËÐÒÔÖÀÖ»öµÄ¡£
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- posted on 11/26/2008
Oh my gosh, you are so negative. Calm down! No one is going to hurt you or take away anything from you. That¡¯s for sure. Calling people who disagree with you "stupid" and "idiots" is really not an effective way of reasoning. Personal attacks usually don't work very well.
Look, no matter what happens, the world is still beautiful, isn¡¯t it? There are good reasons to keep positive and hopeful. Let me put this way: Regardless what Wall Street and Main Street suffer today, an even better world is ahead of all of us. Within 5 years the U.S. auto makers will be forced to make environmental friendly cars (or they will be dead), that will give us much cleaner air no matter who says what. Is that wonderful? Within 4 years a national healthcare coverage program will be in effect. That will cover all people¡¯s healthcare needs regardless their gender, race, national origin, or sex orientation. That way you won¡¯t even have to fight for someone else's coverage any more. Is that wonderful? Within 3 years the stock market will jump up to 16,000 points again, which gives all the 401K policy holders a decent retirement package. Is that wonderful? Within 2 years the housing market will be turning back to grow again. That will make peoples¡¯ investments pay off (look how cheap the houses are, it is the best time to buy. The more you buy the more you gain), and your condo will be worth more than what you pay for. Is that a wonderful thing? Within one year the nation¡¯s unemployment rate will be lower than 5% again after the economic recovery plan is executed, which gives you and others a much bigger job pool to go for. Is that wonderful?
Yes, the Democratic controlled Congress rejected the auto makers¡¯ begging for blank checks. Yes, the people in California passed Prop 8 which rejects gay marriage. Yes, the Chinese people and the government hosted a successful Olympic game in Beijing. So what? It¡¯s just part of the history now. There is no reason to keep negative feelings forever. You fight for what you want and take whatever you get. Move on and enjoy life. From Wall Street to Main Street, all streets will eventually be happy streets in the future.
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in this forum!
Best regards,
¹þ¹þһЦ
tar wrote:
¹þ¹þ½©Ð¦,
7 o'clock, first thing in the morning! What's the matter? Tossing and turning all night and still can't come up with anything original? I ask you about the nuthouse you've been committed to and you reply with "psychiatric help", at least the associative function still works in that misfiring neural graveyard of yours. Did I tell you you are an idiot already? ;-)
And you really believe that if you shut your eyes and clinch your teeth and strain the sh*t out of your facial muscles all the ill wishes you stew in your hateful soul will come true? Can that "device" you "invented" in China help you?
Let's see, you wish you could see every minute every web page I go to and then wish my boss firing me on the spot; failing that, you just wish I am already jobless and homeless. Well try it again, this time really imagine you are in a happy place, and don't forget to strain you bowel muscles as well and empty its content in your trousers. ;-)
You also wish all the companies drop health plans for their gay employees; and failing that, wish I am a gay (although I don't see how that's an insult). That hasn't quite work out for you either. Now this time drop to your knees and do 10 pushups (I bet you can't even do 5!), and jump up and down like the lunatic you are and bang your forehead on the wall 10 times.
The ultimate wish in your racist mind would be spreading a fairy dust and turn me in to a black person, wouldn't even the thought of that make your heart skip a beat and turn apoplectic? You have to work harder on that magic device you "invented" back in China. Did Mao himself give you a medal for that so you became a Mao lover?
A Mao loving racist homophobic lunetic dote. What a combo. Now go spend the whole day subdue your desire to laugh uncontrollably.
- Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 12/19/2008
It seemed to me that Bush adminstration finally decided to do something reasonalbe for the Big Threes. Successful or not, at least give it a random shot - Re: »ª¶û½ÖºÍÖ÷½Öposted on 11/19/2010
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- #118 abc
- #119 abc
- #120 ÊØÍû¹Åµä
- #121 st dude
- #122 ÊØÍû¹Åµä
- #123 shangshi
- #124 feiming
- #125 abc
- #126 ·ÏÃû
- #127 abc
- #128 ÐÐÈË
- #129 pepper
- #130 feiming
- #131 pepper
- #132 ¿à¹Ï
- #133 ·ç×Ó
- #134 ¹þ¹þһЦ
- #135 ·ÏÃû
- #136 ÉÍʯ
- #137 ¹þ¹þһЦ
- #138 tar
- #139 feiming
- #140 ÉÍʯ
- #141 MF
- #142 feiming
- #143 ÉÍʯ
- #144 ¿à¹Ï
- #145 ·ÏÃû
- #146 ÉÍʯ
- #147 ¹þ¹þһЦ
- #148 tar
- #149 abc
- #150 ¿à¹Ï
- #151 ÉÍʯ
- #152 ÀÏÍß
- #153 ¹þ¹þһЦ
- #154 tar
- #155 ·ç×Ó
- #156 ·ÏÃû
- #157 tar
- #158 ¹þ¹þһЦ
- #159 feiming
- #160 ·ÏÃû
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