我这人挺爱掉书袋子的。什么叫掉书袋子?先掉一个给大家看看。用GOOGLE一搜,就出来了。《南唐书·彭利用传》说:“利用对家人稚子,下逮奴隶,言必据书史,断言破句,以代常谈,俗谓之掉书袋”。NND,有了GOOGLE这该死的,掉书袋子连家常便饭都称不上了,简直是小菜一碟。点一下鼠标,40800条符合要求的项目,也就是有四万多个书袋子从天而降,蝗虫一样朴面而来,让人躲闪都来不及。搞的我这个以掉书袋子为乐的人,没有了用武之地。这种感觉,就好像一个喜欢爬山的人,搞好一身装备,兴致勃勃来到珠峰脚下,突然发现,珠峰成了一个小山坡,三步两步就上去了,没了难度系数,还掉个屁啊。
时间倒退几十年,可不是这样的,那时,你想掉书袋,还真不容易。一是要大量地读书,二是要勤奋地记笔记,只有这样,才有袋可掉。象钱钟书、周作人,无一不是读书万卷,笔记等身的人。台上一分钟,台下十年功,这掉书袋子的后面,费了人家多大的心血啊。反过来,一个人一生以读书为乐,看到书上有好的片断,看到经典说法,不掉一下,心里将痒痒得不行。说白了,读书的目的,一半是阅读的过程,另一半就是为了卖弄。这种买弄说得好听点,就叫交流,或曰分享。当然,最好的文章,是不需要掉书袋子的,这就是所谓的原创,这一点,我佩服朋友阿龙,这牛人的文章,一个书袋都木有,但文章写得贼棒。问题是,象阿龙这样的天才实在不多,新鲜滚烫的原创少之又少。没办法,还是掉吧,掉得好,也还不错。比如周作人的散文,其中就有大大小小各种书袋,尽管知道他老人家在掉书袋,你还是会喜欢的。
当然,细说起来,书袋子也有高明与低下之分,好的书袋,引用得恰到好处,读上去美轮美奂,且熨贴爽滑,舒适。这可以称之为丝织书袋。这类书袋虽不是作者原创,但也质地很好,可以珍藏;稍差点的,是纯棉书袋,读上去略有些皱褶感,但引用得还算妥当,且不吸汗,不粘肉,清爽;最差的就是麻袋了,这种书袋子看了就让人恶心,一篇文章,通篇都是麻袋,不但腻,且粗糙刮肉,难过。
我爱好掉书袋,肯定是有遗传基因的,这可以追溯到我奶奶身上。她老人家今年八十七岁,是个没文化的的大脚老太。六十岁前,基本接近文盲,只认识不到三百字。从六十岁开始,每天端一把椅子坐在门口,左边一本小说,右边一本字典,鼻梁上架着老花镜,一个字一个字地读,“鲁~智~深~来~至~庙~前,呀哈, 坐~于~石~边~高~谈……呀哈”,这可是名副其实的读哇,每个句子都被拆开了,抑扬顿挫,而且加上了她自己的尾音,有点象三味书屋里的那位老先生,只是没将头仰起,摇着,向后面拗过去,拗过去。几年时间过去,四大名著居然被“读”了个遍。而且,读完之后,还不甘心,还爱掉个书袋。她的书袋掉得与众不同,属于绝对的原创。事情是这样的,有一天(十多年前),她老四下里瞄了瞄,用手指一勾,神神秘秘地招我进房间,又郑重其事地把门关上,搞得我以为她有什么传家宝要给我,心里一阵狂喜。悉悉嗖嗖之后,她竟从柜子上摸出一摞纸,都是些空烟盒,被她认认真真地拆开,又用书压得整整齐齐的,然后用一个大夹子夹着。烟盒纸的背面,竟然抄了不少诗词和句子,都是从读过的书里摘录的。见我回到家里,竟要跟我探讨一番,然后,也不管我爱听不爱,就要朗诵给我听。红楼梦里那些情诗,比如,林妹妹给宝玉的“彩线难收面上珠,湘江旧迹已模糊。窗前亦有千杆竹,不识香痕渍也无”,被我老奶再创作了一番。你可以想象,这样一个林妹妹,七十多岁了,满脸皱纹,门牙掉得精光,满口方言土语,给她孙子念情诗,这是何等可爱,何等有幽默感啊。
亲爱的老奶,您老可真爱掉书袋子呀。
- Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/12/2007
风趣!有道理。 - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/12/2007
你可以想象,这样一个林妹妹,七十多岁了,满脸皱纹,门牙掉得精光,满口方言土语,给她孙子念情诗,这是何等可爱,何等有幽默感啊。
Too bad we can't hear it! :-) - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/13/2007
学院派喜欢掉书袋子,写东西不掉点儿什么,总是感觉底气不足。 - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/13/2007
Too bad we can't hear it! :-)
把这当幽默剧听,就可以了。
学院派,人家是专业书袋子。 - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/13/2007
老得這麽可愛 :)我們以後也要。 - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/13/2007
老得這麽可愛 :)我們以後也要。
是滴。
- Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/13/2007
也不要说学院派的不是,掉书袋这个词不好,没有书袋掉不好,书袋
掉不好更不好。。。
我要为学院派说几句正面的话。意大利歌剧的发掘,就是源自于佛罗
伦萨几位学者恢复古希腊戏剧的理想,这个理想从十六世纪到二十世
纪,蒙特威尔弟、维瓦尔弟、享德尔、莫扎特、瓦格纳到里查*斯特
劳斯都在实践。这种理想,有承载的开拓,厚重不朽!
倒是现今的白话诗,无头无尾,无根无绪,信口开河,不好。
- posted on 03/13/2007
xw wrote:xw老师,我那句话也是开玩笑的,当不得真。能引经据典的,通常都是学院派的大家,这个事实我不糊涂的。
也不要说学院派的不是,掉书袋这个词不好,没有书袋掉不好,书袋
掉不好更不好。。。
我要为学院派说几句正面的话。意大利歌剧的发掘,就是源自于佛罗
伦萨几位学者恢复古希腊戏剧的理想,这个理想从十六世纪到二十世
纪,蒙特威尔弟、维瓦尔弟、享德尔、莫扎特、瓦格纳到里查*斯特
劳斯都在实践。这种理想,有承载的开拓,厚重不朽!
倒是现今的白话诗,无头无尾,无根无绪,信口开河,不好。
- Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/13/2007
XW先生:我这个文字,主要是拿自己来开玩笑的,讲老实话,我这辈子有个最大心愿就是在学院里当老师,讲文学史,也就是给同学们“掉书袋子”。不过,可能今生是没有这个机会了。当然,掉书袋子原来确实是贬义词,我这里是将它当褒义来说了。
另外,青冈也是玩笑话。请勿见怪。 - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/13/2007
我也只是替学者说两句话。
再添一句吧:文中谈到钱钟书,姓钱,名钟书,一钱一书的。是钟钱
还是钟书,钟书是他安身立命,有人说他掉书袋。。。
是掉书袋好呢?还是掉钱袋?
在现今掉钱袋的世界上,我还是喜欢能掉掉书袋的。
- Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/13/2007
文章谈到一重要现象,有古狗了,掉书袋太容易了,因此人们更不重视积累知识。于是,更显得在课堂上能够随口掉书袋的本事希奇,令学生敬佩。 - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/14/2007
更显得在课堂上能够随口掉书袋的本事希奇,令学生敬佩。
这样的先生,佩服。 - posted on 03/14/2007
I don't know how to translate 佩服, but I think it is important to distinguish "respect" from "admire" and not always do we have both. In Chinese culture, there is a tendency that we 佩服 those whom we may or should admire rather than whom we may or should have a great respect for. We tend to admire or 佩服 those who can make wonders (including 掉书袋) but we don't give enough respect or 佩服 for those who expressed great and important ideas. That is a sad fact in our culture. With all due respect (and much admiration of course) for those who can 掉书袋, including 钱钟书, I have to say they often disapointed me for lack of original and significant ideas. It is even more disapointing to me that we have such a culture that puts more emphasis on performance than substance. I greatly enjoy performance, but reading is different from watching Peking Opera or listening to music. The sustance, content, and ideas deserve more attention, but most of my countrymen or countrywomen seem to feel a different way, and that is one of the pities I have for our culture. It is even difficult to raise such questions as I just did. Hopefully this cafe has enough capacity to allow me to do so. Very often people jump in to say: what? how dare you not to admire 钱钟书 or so and so? They seem uncapable of understanding what I was trying to discuss. I hope I made myself clear this time, and welcome sincere responses for a meaningful discussion.
- Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/14/2007
Right on. In the end it is all about ideas and the originality of the ideas.
Hey I have some sincere response on your Judge Dee book, you want to hear about it? :-)
zxd wrote: - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/14/2007
Sure. Please open a new line, or send to zhu_xiao_di@harvard.edu - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/14/2007
Such criticism of Qian is not new. People have had similar comments that he could quote very widely (intensive reading and amazing memory) but lacked his own original ideas.
zxd wrote:
... including 钱钟书, I have to say they often disapointed me for lack of original and significant ideas. ...what? how dare you not to admire 钱钟书 or so and so...> - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/14/2007
My point is not a criticism of Qian or other masters. My point is that our culture only admires such masters but does not give enough respect to those who have original ideas. In my view this is a critical flaw in our great culture. If we only admire great performers (surely they deserve our admiration) but do not admire original thinkers, we tend to be trapped in self pleasure and enjoyment of what has been achieved but fail to make breakthoughs to advance ourselves.
- posted on 03/14/2007
zxd wrote:
My point is not a criticism of Qian or other masters. My point is that our culture only admires such masters but does not give enough respect to those who have original ideas. In my view this is a critical flaw in our great culture. If we only admire great performers (surely they deserve our admiration) but do not admire original thinkers, we tend to be trapped in self pleasure and enjoyment of what has been achieved but fail to make breakthoughs to advance ourselves.
In general I agree with what you said above, especially that original thinkers deserve to be admired more than those who are only good at 掉书袋. But specifically, I am not sure why you say this. For example, why do you think "our culture only admires such masters but does not give enough respect to those who have original ideas"? Who are those with original ideas but not admired enough? Care to elaborate more? I am just very much interested. - posted on 03/14/2007
Point well taken。只是,只是,能掉书袋固然不易,有original idea(s)就更难了。厚哪个薄哪个正可来分辨古典或现代意识,中庸或前卫的立场。书袋成千上万,是对记忆力的挑战,original ideas凤毛麟角,是对创造力的挑战。两相比较,对社会文化或有高下之分,对个人倒是没什么差别的(当然这刚好就是"self pleasure and enjoyment")。
至于说教书先生,干的不就是掉书袋的活儿吗:)Originality则体现在书袋如何个掉法。俺做学生多年,对先生们是这么分的:I admire those who can make complicated matters simple; I respect those who can make simple matters complicated; I'm indifferent to those who see things the way they are; I disrespect those who just don't get it.:)
- posted on 03/15/2007
zxd wrote:
My point is not a criticism of Qian or other masters. My point is that our culture only admires such masters but does not give enough respect to those who have original ideas. In my view this is a critical flaw in our great culture. If we only admire great performers (surely they deserve our admiration) but do not admire original thinkers, we tend to be trapped in self pleasure and enjoyment of what has been achieved but fail to make breakthoughs to advance ourselves.
In general I agree with what you said above, especially that original thinkers deserve to be admired more than those who are only good at 掉书袋. But specifically, I am not sure why you say this. For example, why do you think "our culture only admires such masters but does not give enough respect to those who have original ideas"? Who are those with original ideas but not admired enough? Care to elaborate more? I am just very much interested. - posted on 03/15/2007
Thanks for understanding. Again, I didn't have any particular individuals in mind when I said that, such as so and so should be more respected than so and so. That is quite a matter of opinions. What I am targeting on here is the general culture. Let me still Use Mr. Qian as an example. I love his novel and greatly admire him for it, although some people may not like it and think it too sharp-tongued. Yet, I'm afraid many people respect him mostly for his scholar work. If he is not a scholar, they would freely criticize him just like they do with any other novelists and don't show due respect at all. They only admire his scholarship because they "fear" him and are awed by him. There is a tendency to kowtow here, not because they respect and appreciate what he said but because they are "frightened" by his skills that they obviously do not have. While they may imagine themselves to be able to write his novel, if he didn't has his scholar work, they could never imagine they could have his memory and other skills. As a result, they admire him for his astonishing skills more than his thoughts. Many think they can think and therefore do not respect those who really can think originally and independently. Meanwhile they easily kowtow to those who possess amazing skills that others could not copy or imitate. I wish we can change this culture gradually by respecting original thinkers more and admiring amazing skills such as memorizing a little less. - posted on 03/15/2007
我个人觉得钱是够原创的,钱的小说,散文独具一格。
钱的学术创作,译笔编撰在中文世界都独树一帜。至少,谈艺录是我
读到最好的汉语诗论,比朱光潜的诗论更诗。
另外,钱也毕生从事诗歌创作。
钱的比较文化(修辞学)工作是汉学家作不来的,也是一般“国学”家
无法作的。不独是他的技能,是他实实在在的著述。
一个人做这么多已够了不起的了。
&&&
越接触西方文化,越发现西方对传统的传承与开拓。计算机不是一日
而就的,相对论也有伽罗华的根基。还有洛伦兹,庞加勒。
钱走的正是这条路,包括一整个学衡派,循序渐进。
可惜的是,现今能承继的人不多。最可惜的是,中国的创作人的根基
。一个民族不能只有“小二黑结婚”和“白毛女”。。
我还是很欣赏西方的传承与开拓。还有结合不同文化的开拓,象二十
世纪初欧州所作的那样。
&&&
再添一句题外话,就是古希腊记忆女神生了九个女儿,那是九位缪斯。。。
莫小看记忆。量变质变,图灵机,人工智能,都需要强大的存贮。
- Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/15/2007
一并感谢各位带来上佳的讨论!因为我的英文不好,所以就没法用英文回话了,请诸位先生见谅!关于原创和书袋子,我认为二者缺一不可,如果没有一代人又一代人的掉书袋子,无论科学、文化,都不会如此之繁荣。当然,思想方面,原创比较好,但问题是,原创也是建立在大量书袋子上的,绝对的原创是没有的。中国文化里有对书袋子的崇拜,这又是另一个话题了。
- Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/15/2007
中国文化里有对书袋子的崇拜,这又是另一个话题了。
That's exactly what I was talking about. I'm going to write more on this and open a new line soon. Thanks for giving us food for thought or at least a meaningful topic. See you later. - Re: 掉书袋子趣谈posted on 03/15/2007
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