没有想到小资村上春树还说过这样有见地的话:
“如果你志在追求艺术追求文学,那么去读一读希腊人写的东西好了,因为要诞生真正的艺术,奴隶制度是必不可少的。而希腊人就是这样:奴隶们耕种,烧饭,划船,而市民们则在地中海的阳光下陶醉于吟诗作赋,埋头于数学解析,所谓艺术就是这么一种玩意。”
想想真是没错,中国伟大的哲人也都是诞生在奴隶制时代。 伟大的精神贵族只能在贵族中产生。 把奴隶撺生为平民的政治运动现在看来是失败的, 黑人的生活真的比他们当奴隶的时候好吗? 我所知道的美国南北战争时,黑人奴隶并不十分情愿被解放,是白人的一厢情愿,或者说是北方白人要将在种植园里的奴隶变成北方工厂里的奴隶,这到底有什么区别?
我所见到的中国血汗衣厂里的工人、加州农场里的墨西哥人,除了有可以到百货超市买买菜的自由之外,他们真的有人身自由吗? 所不同的是,捆绑他们的是钞票、是合法的身份。
这是所谓民主社会、文明社会的假相, 我们现在的社会制度并不比奴隶制慈善。
- 艺术源于痛苦posted on 02/24/2004
艺术似乎总是要建立在某些人的痛苦之上, 奴隶们的肉体痛苦与艺术家的精神痛苦, 肉体的血和精神的泪。 - posted on 02/24/2004
What nonsenses!
You are implying that slaves have nothing but body, and aristocrats nothing but spirit, and from your implication one can easily draw a rediculus conclusion that the slaves aren't capable of thinking and feeling, and the aristocrats are free of any sensual needs and so can spend their whole life just thinking and creating art. Do you really think human face can be so clearly divided apart? Do you know that the greatest Stoic philosopher Epictetus was born as a slave?
Art shares one thing with all noble religious feelings, that is, the love for all living things and the mercy for all sufferings of the whole human experiences, those of slaves and ordinary people included. Many great artists themselves experienced poverty, hardship and humiliations in their lives. How can bodily sufferings be seperated from the spiritual sufferings?
The modern democracy has reimbursed every human being the dignity he/she is entitled to, so everyone is free to think, to express, to creat. Only those lazy and useless offsprings of former aristocrats are lamenting the loss of slavery and the prevalence of democracy. Murakami Haruki sees one merit of the old aristocratic time but ignores many of its flaws. He himself seems to me a quite slef-indulged writer and I doubt there is much value in his writings anyway. I am not surprised at all if he is advocating for slavery and the aristocratic art.
玛雅 wrote:
> 艺术似乎总是要建立在某些人的痛苦之上, 奴隶们的肉体痛苦与艺术家的精神痛苦, 肉体的血和精神的泪。 - posted on 02/25/2004
昨日匆忙出贴,有不少typo. "human face" should be "human race", "slef-indulged" be "self-indulged" etc.
I was probably a bit harsh to Maya, but the target is the idea, not the person. No offenses.
adagio wrote:
> Do you really think human face can be so clearly divided apart? Do you know that the greatest Stoic philosopher Epictetus was born as a slave?
>
> Murakami Haruki sees one merit of the old aristocratic time but ignores many of its flaws. He himself seems to me a quite slef-indulged writer and I doubt there is much value in his writings anyway. - 我哪里会那样小肚鸡肠。兰JJ不要太多顾忌posted on 02/27/2004
我会再想一个更好的表达。 - posted on 02/28/2004
基本同意玛雅的论点,但其实这并不新奇。只是对我们很多中国人来说刺激了点。
最近,本刀对艺术与医学的关系挺感兴趣,正搜集阅读这方面东西。其实,玛雅这里谈的论点,西方知识界(艺术界,文学界,医学和医学史界,以及心理学界都已很早很热闹深入地认真研究了。有不少书籍论文谈疼痛,死亡和伤病与艺术的相互关系--请注意“相互”二字--如:艺术的产生和表现如何源于及受激发于痛苦及病痛(肉体和精神两方面),反过来,艺术对痛苦,伤病的化解缓解作用等等。每个方面都有很多专门的学者从人文方面,医学生理解剖和心理精神病方面,社会经济方面,人种学方面研究着。这是个很有意思的大题目--一句话的简单命题,却要费时多年甚至有人穷及一生去研究。
对玛雅的很多文章里论点或表达方式,语气等,我很不以为然,也不一定赞同。但我尊重她的独立性,和反叛性,对新鲜事物观点的关注和愿意认识领悟(甚至尝试?)。要想让她信服或放弃她所持的观点,你得认真去学习。单凭NO SENSE!很难摆平她。也不可能达到目的。
玛雅:你在CND趟俺那浑水,本刀可不领情!俺甚至替你挂不住脸了--这哪是你那平日的作派?
你又有何资格让俺少说两句?你要么别趟这浑水,要么亮出你的舌头和真嗓门。
BE YOURSELF!
另,本刀回来送个人肉包子过来。玛雅有兴趣或饿了时候,也不妨串串门到俺那铺子小坐?虽然本刀一副血腥恶相,但俺那厢还是有不少美媚美姐才女们喝茶闲聊,铺子倒也很干净--下三烂泼皮早叫俺把去填坑了。
刀客
http://www.yhcw.net/ - posted on 02/28/2004
胡侃一刀“艺术源于痛苦”
古希腊悲剧,荷马史诗,莎士比亚的四大悲剧等远比喜剧更让人印象深刻(其实这是普遍的规律,悲剧比喜剧在艺术史的地位更高)也说明了人类对痛苦(疼痛)的感受,印象,记忆和心理生理反应远比快乐所带来的相应反应要强烈和存在长久的多。看看中国古典诗词里,那些最脍炙人口的名篇绝句基本都是主体体验痛苦感受后的一种释放和反应,从苏辛放翁到后主易安李杜,莫不如此。即使豪放的作品其潜在的内容也是痛苦体验以一种所谓“豪放”的表象来展示的,苏大胡子牛吧?且不说他那“明月夜,短松岗”,就是“西北望,射天狼”也是因为“何时牵冯唐?”引起的吧!现实生活中,两个个体由相爱到反目成仇或离异或丧偶,此后一方的心理精神上痛苦体验往往超过二人相悦所带来的快感,而对后者的回忆感受甚至会激发更强烈的痛苦体验而成为恶性循环,放翁的《钗头凤》就是典型--所谓“悲剧美”,“初恋美”和“艺术源于痛苦”就是这样来的。
刀客
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